New User - Help required - Kitchen Light

[Blokey]

Hello all, I have searched right the previous posts on this subject but i cannot seem to find the correct answer, so here goes.

I have recently renewed my livng & dining room light roses, following the sequence, turn off mains, identify switch wire and main feed in, this leaves the final cable as being the link to the next light. Next connect wires as per instructions supplied. Switch on mains & test light before moving to next light.

All seemed ok until I got to renewing the kitchen rose.

This has some kind of connection to an outhouse light which seems to be part of the problem.

The light is switched on by a double switch, one switch powering the interior light & one for the outside.

Using the same proceedure as above I identified the appropriate cables, connected them up and tested. The light comes on but is slightly dimmer than normal using a 100w bulb. Changed the bulb to 150w and the light just glowed orange.

I then noticed the light in the outhouse is on but only just glowing, so I disconnected at the switch and taped up the wires, just to see if it made any difference but the light in the outhouse stayed the same.

If it helps this is a 1950s ex council house, the wire is solid core (red/Black) twin + earth and within the original rose, which was held together by 1/4 inch of bloody artex, there was the usual three main cables and a rubber covered 2 core (silver strands) cable (i have not connected this cable to anything as I cannot see an use for it.

ANY help with this would be greatly appreciated

 

[dingbat]

When you say you tested, what you really mean is that you operated the switches!

Your identification procedure is the fault here, coupled with insufficient knowledge of how circuits work. You've wired these lights up in series. Rather than read the forum posts, go to the menu tabs at the top of the page and click on 'Wiki'.

If you can't find out what you need to know from this section then I honestly believe you should not be working with electricity and should call an electrician.

 

[Blokey]

Thanks Dingbat, but when I say I tested, I removed the actual switch and used a multi meter to verify the switch wire by connecting both ends. I verifyed the supply feed by reconnecting the main supply and using the multi meter to identify the live wire, this obviously leaves the remaining wire as the connection to the next rose.

I am obviously missing something at the kitchen rose and it is what I should be looking for there I was looking for a clue with.

 

[dingbat]

Well done on the multimeter! But did you do the most obvious thing, which is to make a drawing of the original connections?

If it worked before, but doesn't now, then it is obviously something you have done. Without more information it will be difficult to solve without being on the spot.

But you could start with a piece of paper and a pencil and draw out what you have at each point. This will give you some pointers to identify what is what. To track a particular cable you can (with the power off!) connect, say, live and earth at one end and test for continuity at the other. Once you can say for certain which cable goes where you'll be in with a chance of sorting it out.

 

[Softus]

When you say you tested, what you really mean is that you operated the switches!

Your identification procedure is the fault here, coupled with insufficient knowledge of how circuits work. You've wired these lights up in series. Rather than read the forum posts, go to the menu tabs at the top of the page and click on 'Wiki'.

If you can't find out what you need to know from this section then I honestly believe you should not be working with electricity and should call an electrician.

I disagree. Blokey has exercised sufficient care and thought, and has come across a genuine problem, albeit of his own creation.

I don't think that all of the lights are wired in series, which is what dingbat appears to be asserting.

Blokey - start by (after isolating of course) disconnecting all of the wires at the kitchen rose. Identify the wires that go from there to each switch. Ensure that you didn't make a mistake and, for example, use a neutral from the lamp as the looped live out. Use (and, if necessary, buy) a multimeter. If you put a lamp (aka bulb) in the outhouse then you can check for a completed circuit out there and identity the correct pair of wires that lead to that (via the switch).

 

[breezer]

(and, if necessary, buy) a multimeter.

I hate to point this out

and using the multi meter

 

[Blokey]

Thanks chaps, will start again, make some notes and if i still cant see the problem try to list a diagram.

It would appear to be the fact that this outside light is in the circuit and I have still have this connected in, despite disconnecting at the switch but short of pulling the ceiling down to trace the circuit path, I thought I ask first as someone could have helped with the reason why the light dims more when I put a bigger bulb in.

 

[Softus]

(and, if necessary, buy) a multimeter.

I hate to point this out

and using the multi meter

My post crossed with Blokey's - I thought that was obvious from the fact that I quoted his first post.

 

[breezer]

no sorry it wasnt obvious.

that is also why i said i was sorry to point it out

 

[Softus]

Fair play - sorry to be grouchy - no hard feelings.

 

[dingbat]

I don't think that all of the lights are wired in series, which is what dingbat appears to be asserting.

Neither do I. But I do do believe his kitchen and outhouse lights are!



I loved this display of confidence, by the way!

Blokey has exercised sufficient care and thought, and has come across a genuine problem, albeit of his own creation.

Also, I'm not sure how your advice

Blokey - start by (after isolating of course) disconnecting all of the wires at the kitchen rose. Identify the wires that go from there to each switch. Ensure that you didn't make a mistake and, for example, use a neutral from the lamp as the looped live out. Use (and, if necessary, buy) a multimeter. If you put a lamp (aka bulb) in the outhouse then you can check for a completed circuit out there and identity the correct pair of wires that lead to that (via the switch).

will get him any further on than mine

But you could start with a piece of paper and a pencil and draw out what you have at each point. This will give you some pointers to identify what is what. To track a particular cable you can (with the power off!) connect, say, live and earth at one end and test for continuity at the other. Once you can say for certain which cable goes where you'll be in with a chance of sorting it out.

 

[Softus]

I don't think that all of the lights are wired in series, which is what dingbat appears to be asserting.

Neither do I. But I do do believe his kitchen and outhouse lights are!

In that case I must have misinterpreted what you wrote, but your first post wasn't particularly helpful or insightful.

I loved this display of confidence, by the way!

Blokey has exercised sufficient care and thought, and has come across a genuine problem, albeit of his own creation.

I'm glad you liked it. But was I any more confident, or less correct, than you were here:

If it worked before, but doesn't now, then it is obviously something you have done...

Also, I'm not sure how your advice
.
<snip>
.
will get him any further on than mine

I never said it would, but (as already observed above) my post was written before I read yours; this was because I started typing in 30 mins earlier and got distracted before submitting it.

 

[dingbat]

I'd have thought that directing him to the place where he could learn all he'd need to know might have been helpful. Oh well...


... I wonder if Blokey's got anywhere yet?

 

[Blokey]

right chaps, this is what I have discovered:

Took rose down and checked there were no more wires in the void

Tested each wire to see what connects to what.

I have three T+E cables entering the rose and one twin (no earth, looks to old and on testing does not appear to be connected to anything or forming a completed circuit so assumed to be redundant from an earlier installation)

1 T+E is Live on reconnection to mains
1 Connects to second switch on wall and nowhere else
last one is the one that is confusing me

It is connected to Number1 switch at wall

By the way both switches checked for correct use

Now my problem

Wire from Number 1 switch also appears to have a circuit to the outside light.

The outside light has 2 T+E cables coming into it
Both reds have been linked with a chocbloc
The original light fitting has been stripped out and replaced with a spotlight (installed prior to us moving in!!)
The Brown and Blue wires from the spotlight have been connected to Chocblocs, one on either of the black wires.

When tested these blacks Both have a direct connection to both the red & Black of the wire connected to Number 1 switch wire (at the rose)

It would appear nothing is connected to the reds at the outside light but I would assume this could be down to me having disconnected everything at the rose.

Really any help you can give is greatly appreciated

Oh and all the earths are properly attached at the relevant points

 

[Blokey]

Sorry

Switch 1 is for the Kitchen light

Switch 2 is for the outside light