Newby numpty

[lilblue1970]

Hello there. I think I may end up a frequent flier here. Just removed 2 ceiling roses to change from single pendant lights to triple uplighter (wifes fault). Took off all the red loop wires and bunched in a block and put to one side. Blocked the earths together. Singled out the red live in one into a block and red/black (switch) into another block and then bunched the black neutrals into another. For clarification these are at opposite ends of a long room. I am absolutely positive they all went together the way they came apart. So now I wire the uplighters up and I have 1 light of 3 working on the single red end and 2 of 3 working on the red/black end. What have I done wrong?

 

[lilblue1970]

Forgot to say it's 2 gang as well, if that makes any difference.

 

[riveralt]

Ensure the grouping of the wires is as follows.

ALL red wires go into one terminal block.
All earths go into a second terminal block
All the black wires (except the switch live go into the third terminal block)
The black (with red sleeving) switch live goes into its own block.

Then connect to the lighting unit with the brown wire to the switch live terminal block. The blue wire to the black wires (neutral) terminal block and the earth to the earth terminal block.

The only slightly confusing part of your post is that you have a two gang switch. Does that mean that previously each gang operated one ceiling rose? If this is so then the wiring suggested above will need to be reviewed because you will have to identify two switched lives or alternatively replace the double gang switch with a single gang.

 

[lilblue1970]

Thanks for the quick reply. I have done everything as you described, which is why I'm confused. To clarify I have a switch in the hallway and another in the room itself and I'm presuming this is 2 gang or is my terminology wrong, it bloody could be. I thought it may be the bulbs, so I switched round the 3 on each of the uplighters and its not the bulbs. The same arm lights up each time. I'm wondering if it's the uplighter itself being faulty as I didn't try them before mounting them on the ceiling (numpty) as it's new but I suppose that doesn't mean it's without fault.

 

[riveralt]

How is the new light's cabling arranged. You say there are three uplighters is that on one lighting unit? If it is then I assume that there is a terminal block with L N E to which you are connecting the cables. Pictures of your wiring and the lighting units terminal blocks would help.

Incidentally the way I suggested you wire the cables is different from what you have indicated in your original post.
ALL the reds go into one terminal block including what you called the red live. It is the switch live that connects to the lighting units live terminal.

Regards the switches are you saying that the switch in the hallway and the switch in the room both operate the new light. Or are you saying that the hallway switch operates 1 or the three lights and the one in the other room operates two of the three lights.

It might be worth you while checking out wiki - lighting section.

 

[lilblue1970]

Sorry I'm confusing matters. I hope I can make it clearer.
Rose 1 had 4 earths, 4 blacks, 3 reds and 1 red that went to live on the rose.
Rose 2 had 4 earths, 3 blacks, 3 reds and 1 red and 1 black that went to live on the rose.
I wired them identically into connector blocks. On Rose1 I taped up the grouped reds and put to one side and connected up 4 blacks to the grouped blue and the single red to the grouped brown on the unit. On rose2 I taped up the 3 reds and put to one side, connected the 3 blacks to the grouped blue and the single red and single black to the grouped brown on the unit.
The uplighters have 3 lamps on each and on ex-rose1 only one lamp is working and on ex-rose2 two lamps are working.
My original single pendant lights worked without fault in the original configuration, so I don't know what I'm missing.

 

[riveralt]

Okay if I read this right you have two individual switches. Switch one operates ceiling rose one (now uplighter one). Switch two operates ceiling rose two (now uplighter two). You wired as outlined - though I assume you also wired the earths together.

On ceiling rose two you state you have connected the one red and black together to the lamp live. This is a concern because that implies that both the red and black are switch live which would be very unusual.

Before proceeding check the wiring at each switch relating to their ceiling rose. On switch one, based on your wiring assertions, the Common should be red and the L1 (switched live) should be red.
On switch two - you will have to report back what you find because as I said you shouldn't have two switched lives.

It almost sounds as if you have somehow managed to wire the lights in series.

 

[lilblue1970]

You are gonna wish you never replied. Both the hallway and room switch operate both uplighters as they did when the roses were in place. They were wired originally as they are now described, I just put the wires in the connector blocks as they were in the rose. The earths are grouped, just thought I'd try and shorten my message by not including them. I will try to upload some pix when my camera has charged. Just don't understand why each unit which has a block with grouped brown, blue and earth doesn't light all three lamps on each.

 

[riveralt]

Okay I think I am beginning to understand how the lights are wired up.

If both switches operate both lights at the same time and assuming there is only one cable in each switch then each ceiling rose should have three cables.
Two cables that form the live, neutral and earth loops and one switch wire.

Assuming that the switch wire is black (should have red sleeving) then the fourth wire is the link between the light units.

Again assuming that switch two's switch live is black and goes to uplighter 2 Live terminal then the red wire also connects there. It goes to uplighter one's L terminal.

If that is how you wired it up then that sounds right Although both light switches would have to be off to stop the switch live operating which seems odd.

Perhaps you should concentrate on the light units themselves first.

At the light units it is possible that the grouped browns and or blues as you called them are not all making contact with the terminal block causing one or two of the lights not to work. Check they are properly terminated and not blocked by insulation.

If you had a multi-meter and were confident to work live I would suggest that you test to see if there is any voltage at the lamps that are not working. But check the grouped browns and blues first.

 

[lilblue1970]

You are very patient. I inherited this wiring system and to be honest, I think maybe some of the wiring is redundant as it seems there are too many cables for such a simple setup. I just rewired everything as I found it as there have never been any problems, just wanted to change from a single pendant in each half of the room to give more light. I thought it was going to be simple or I would have got a proper lekky in, but nothing in this house is. I am absolutely positive that I have wired as I found, as I checked everything several times and drew a diagram for reference, caution is the key for me when it comes to electrics as I got seriously fried several years ago whilst being a musician which was a near fatal jobbie and in front of a full house. In my eagerness to get the job done, I didn't think to even check if the two units worked, just gave them a visual once over. Am I OK to wire the block to a plug and try in a wall socket? I don't have a multimeter and wouldn't know what to do with it if I did. Cheers for the help. I'm Gary bye the way.

 

[sparkwright]

If the uplighters work ok, at full brightness, except for some of the individual lamps, then this would suggest a fault with the manufacturers wiring within the fitting, or duff lamps. Or the lamps are not fitted properly.

The wiring you describe seems a little strange. Are regular twin and earth cables used, or single core cables, or a combination of both?

Assuming the lights are switched individually by the 2 gang switch, I wouldn't have expected the wiring to be as you describe. However, if that is how it was wired then one would have to assume that it is correct. Unless of course it is wrong.

Does another light come on with former ceiling rose 2?

As mentioned, it may pay to fit a flex and plug on each fitting, after disconnecting from the ceiling of course, to see if they work properly.

Be aware of any stray wires on the fittings that may have fallen out, which may be causing the problem.

A typical ceiling rose would consist of one black wire with a red sleeve going to L.
All remaining blacks going to N.
All reds going to a separate connector.
All earths going to earth terminal.

Of course, there are many instances where this wiring wouldn't be appropriate.

Be sure to work safely and isolate all power before you start working.

 

[lilblue1970]

Thanks for all the help guys. It is wired with normal twin and earth, but I have 4 t&e cables going to each rose, so as I say, I think some may be redundant but I don't have the expertise to figure out which. I had the house checked by a qualified electrician when I bought it and everything was fine, but there were numerous wires hanging out of walls from previous lighting configurations all of which were dead. The room in question had two wall lights that were dead, one wall light in the hallway that was dead and a four gang switch in the hallway that operates the room I'm concerned with, the hallway light, the landing light and the remaining switch is not attached to any cables whatsoever. This is what you find when you buy a 'character' Edwardian house that has spent years as a renter. Anyway, I will remove the units and test them and post back the results. Once again many thanks for the assistance.

 

[lilblue1970]

WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!!! It was the bloody uplighter units themselves, not the wiring. Well there's my first lesson in electrickery, check the new item works first 'cause it's a bloody arse when you have to take them down again. Thanks for all your help. Sorry I wasted your time with a stupid mistake.

 

[riveralt]

WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!!! It was the bloody uplighter units themselves, not the wiring. Well there's my first lesson in electrickery, check the new item works first 'cause it's a bloody a**e when you have to take them down again. Thanks for all your help. Sorry I wasted your time with a stupid mistake.

No problem Gary glad to see you sorted it out. You might want to check that the 'broken' downlighters cables are all making connections to the terminal block and none have tightened on the insulation.