Ouch - faulty cables = big bills

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Came across this, well actually it was a link in a "news" email from one of our network stuff suppliers at work. I can't help thinking the ramifications will rumble on for some time, and it shows that just using a "reputable" wholesaler isn't a guarantee.

FAULTY CABLE LEAVES WOOLWORTHS IN AUSTRALIA WITH A BIG FINANCIAL HEADACHE

The Approved Cables Initiative (ACI) is reporting that Woolworths may face a clean-up bill of between £16 to £32 million for its role in the sale of faulty electrical cable to around 40,000 households and businesses. This major problem has occurred in Australia, but the risk is that it can happen in the UK:
http://edmundson-electrical.voltili...s-woolworths-australia-big-financial-headache
 
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4000km of cable - that's going to take some finding and replacing :eek: More work for the sparkies, though I can imagine a lot of households will be a bit peeved about the disruption.
But insisting victims sign away their rights ? Hope they get kicked into touch with that.

Serves them right.

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.
Really ? You buy cable from an importer who provided evidence that it meets standards, and then it's completely your own fault if that's wrong ?
Yes I can see that there's an argument for doing your own testing when it's this scale of purchase, and the certification comes from China - but absolutely no sympathy at all ?

Presumably then you have no sympathy at all for anyone buying anything made in China ? Have you personally tested the components in your phone, TV, fridge, ........ ?
 
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Really ? You buy cable from an importer who provided evidence that it meets standards, and then it's completely your own fault if that's wrong ?
No, it's not your fault that the cable is wrong.

But it is your fault that you allowed yourself to be deceived, it is your fault that you bought the cable and it is your fault that you then put it on sale.

We are talking about cheap cable from China, and a Chinese quality certification.

You are a professional buyer - your job is to know about the world market in goods your employer wants you to source for it. For how long have you known that there is a substantial history of factories in China making dodgy goods and passing them off with fake certifications?


Yes I can see that there's an argument for doing your own testing when it's this scale of purchase, and the certification comes from China - but absolutely no sympathy at all ?
You're a professional buyer. You know their track record. You know the risks of buying their cheap goods. You do nothing in recognition of those things.

Absolutely no sympathy whatsoever.


Presumably then you have no sympathy at all for anyone buying anything made in China ? Have you personally tested the components in your phone, TV, fridge, ........ ?
I am not a professional buyer trying to source those components.
 
Whilst I am not a buyer myself, I work in the Buying team of one of the UKs biggest high street retailers.

Whilst I have some sympathy with Woolworths, the onus really is on them to ensure the goods they are buying are up to scratch.

We buy extensively from China (as do most retailers) and you really have to be careful, as a lot of the paperwork and quality "guarantees" are often not worth the paper they are written on.

Contracts should be written with this sort of occurrence in mind, and the Chinese supplier should carry the can, and will no doubt be sued for any loss incurred by Woolies.

I don't envy the Woolworths buying team at this moment!
 
The only way out, is to bring back manufacturing to Great Britain again. It will work out much cheaper, if you take all other factors into account, not just the price of the product.

You will save wasted management time, loss of business, wasted customer time, and the reputation of your business, and reduce the risk of injury or damage.

Maybe the incoming Labour government in May's elections can legislate to start the process rolling! :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
Woolworths did not buy from China they bought the goods from a firm based in their own country.

We also buy from UK manufacturers but they in turn buy from China and if we buy items from the high street which names associated with UK we assume it's made in UK.

With a phone charger which falls apart in ones hand then yes we look at the supply chain and expect they should have tested.

But a cable which will only last 5 years instead of 50 years you would have to have kept it for 6 years to know it's faulty.

What I find interesting is that Woolworths is being charged with the cost of replacement. In the past recalls for items like MCB's the MCB's is replaced but claims for time, and fuel used to replace it have not been met.

This is after all the whole idea of trade price the extra added to each item we fit is to cover for the cost to replace it should it go wrong.

I have seen this a lot in the motor trade. Buy an alternator and it goes faulty and you take alternator back not the car. But take car in for new alternator and then if it goes wrong alternator is re-fitted as well.

With main agents there is a different process you car has a recall and the main agents are paid to do the work by the manufacturer but this is a special case and is all to do with manufacturers warranty.
 
With China buyer beware, Woolworth's checks were insufficient.

About 20years ago we dealt with a Chinese manufacturer - they had no way to reject non-compliant steel they received. After all every one worked for the party and no-one would cut corners would they . . . they just dumped it.

And if anyone has any doubts remaining just google Mattel and lead paint.
 
Interesting.

Just read this thread and the 2 articles listed.

AFAIK, the owner of the Aussie supplying company is defending herself by stating that:

(a) She did not have the cable tested in Australia as the testing lab was in the process of moving (Really?!?)

(b) In response to an e-mail from a local (NSW?) Trading Standards Office, she sent a reply with detalis of Chinese testing certification and, because she did not receive a reply, she assumed they had accepted that (by tacit inference she suggests)

Whilst not explicitly explored in either article (AFAICS) the issue is clearly what checks (if any) the buyers for Masters (an Aussie Woolworth's owned DIY store I presume) carried out prior to buying cable from her company and then selling it on via their stores.

The articles suggest that these buyers for Masters/Woolworths either didn't ask for certification or based their purchasing on the Chinese testing certification without asking for Aussie certification.

Either way, IMHO they must be at fault for this and I think we all agree that Masters/Woolworths apparent acceptance of 'guilt' supports this assumption based on whatever legal advice their legal team gave them as to their liability.

The first article suggest it could happen here but I surmise that this could only happen here if a retailer offered products for sale without ensuring the supplying company provided proper certification as to their safety and fitness for purpose.

All smacks of someone trying to make a quick buck.

As the old adage goes, If a deal seems too good to be true then it probably isn't a good deal....
 
But it is your fault that you allowed yourself to be deceived, it is your fault that you bought the cable and it is your fault that you then put it on sale.

We are talking about cheap cable from China, and a Chinese quality certification.
So on that basis, it's the electricians' fault - they bought cheap Chinese cable (from a local wholesaler) without doing their own tests ?

IMO the situation is fairly simple - whoever imports a product into a country/area is responsible for making sure it meets local regulations/standards. That is how EU law works - the responsibility for meeting EU regulations rests with whoever imports it and first places it on the market". So if ${big retailer} buys from a wholesaler then the wholesaler is responsible, if they buy it direct from (eg) China then they are responsible themselves.
I do agree, however, that this isn't sufficient. The responsibility isn't, as you suggest, to retest stuff - but to look into the supply chain and decide if the existing qualification/certification is credible and reliable. I too have worked for a company that imported direct, though I wasn't involved in the buying process - so I do have some idea of what it's like (plenty of 'internal chatter' to spread the 'news').

I can only assume that the wholesalers (note plural) involved all decided that the evidence being offered was credible. Easy to say otherwise in hindsight.

Woolworths did not buy from China they bought the goods from a firm based in their own country.
Indeed.
This is where I disagree with BAS. BAS takes the point that if it comes from China then it could be dodgy, and anyone buying it - even through a local supplier - is therefore responsible for assessing it themselves. I'm trying to figure out where that stops - the electrician buying the cable is doing it professionally - so should he also be responsible ?

We also buy from UK manufacturers but they in turn buy from China and if we buy items from the high street which names associated with UK we assume it's made in UK.
Really ? I don't assume anything about where stuff is made - other than it'll be made wherever someone thinks they can get it done cheapest.

But a cable which will only last 5 years instead of 50 years you would have to have kept it for 6 years to know it's faulty.
They have "accelerated" tests for such things. It doesn't always work, and it needs highly specialist knowledge to work out, but it's often as "simple" as running at elevated temperature which (typically) accelerates the chemical reactions.

What I find interesting is that Woolworths is being charged with the cost of replacement. In the past recalls for items like MCB's the MCB's is replaced but claims for time, and fuel used to replace it have not been met.
I can't help thinking this is to do with the scale of the costs involved.
Swapping out an MCB is typically not a big job - PITA if you have to visit lots of customers, but not in the grand scheme of things a huge job.
A full rewire is a different matter. I wonder if a trade group effectively threatened mass legal action to recover losses and the authorities decided to pre-empt that ?

BTW - it's not just Woolies having to pay, just that they appear to have been the biggest seller and hence carry the largest chunk of the cost.
 
But a cable which will only last 5 years instead of 50 years you would have to have kept it for 6 years to know it's faulty.
They have "accelerated" tests for such things. It doesn't always work, and it needs highly specialist knowledge to work out, but it's often as "simple" as running at elevated temperature which (typically) accelerates the chemical reactions.
Give or take it's limitations, accelerated product testing is all very well for 'type testing' of a new product (and maybe also for 'QA' of already-released batches), but it is unlikely to be a realistic approach to production QC testing. For a product with an intended life of decades, even accelerated testing is likely to take 'a year or three' - and it would probably not be realistic to delay batch release (of such a high volume product) for that period of time.

Having said that, I might have hoped that there would be appropriate 'chemical' (or whatever) tests that could give almost immediate answers, precluding the need for long-term testing of any sort.

Kind Regards, John
 
I agree - chemical testing would be needed to show that each batch matched the sample that was initially life tested. I was responding to the false assertion that to demonstrate a working life of "x" years would mean having to keep a sample under test for ">x" years. Clearly, for something with an intended lifespan of 50 years, that would not be practical.

I do wonder how many cable manufacturers actually have the skills/facilities for such tests - or whether they rely on the capabilities of the plastics/rubbers manufacturers they buy their materials from.
 
I agree - chemical testing would be needed to show that each batch matched the sample that was initially life tested. I was responding to the false assertion that to demonstrate a working life of "x" years would mean having to keep a sample under test for ">x" years. Clearly, for something with an intended lifespan of 50 years, that would not be practical.
I'm not sure that I would call it a "false assertion". The only definitive way of demonstrating a life of X years is to conduct normal-condition testing for at least X years - although, as discussed, the test can be appreciably reduced (but still long), albeit with some 'risks', by accelerated testing. A 'surrogate' test, such as a chemical one, will usually give a good indication, but is not foolproof - even if that testing gave similar results to those obtained with previous life-tested samples, that does not preclude the existence of other issues which may impact on product life.
I do wonder how many cable manufacturers actually have the skills/facilities for such tests - or whether they rely on the capabilities of the plastics/rubbers manufacturers they buy their materials from.
Indeed - but that is an issue/problem which pervades much of manufacturing industry, perhaps with the exception of very large manufacturing companies.

Kind Regards, John
 

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