Pension Forfeiture on Dismissal

F

FiremanT

Joined
16 Jan 2012
Messages
10,561
Reaction score
2,350
Location
Uk
Country
United Kingdom
My immediate bosses, in a LA, are quite controlling, and a "us and them" relationship prevails.
One "scare tactic" employed is the unwritten threat that if sacked, the employee can lose the proportion of pension rights attributable to those (significant) contributions made by the employer.

I know of at least two colleagues who resigned, rather than undergo a disciplinary with a risk of dismissal, to avoid a potential loss. These guys were lied to.

Pensions can be forfeited, but the rules are very strict. I have tried googling to try to find out how many UK pensions have been forfeited in full or part, but can not find the answer, and, in fact, 2 cases keep appearing - bit the forfeiture application failed.

Does anyone here know personally any one who has lost their pension, or can point me to an answer to "how many"?

Cheers
 
Sponsored Links
have the separated off the pension??
in 1994 the railway had to separate the pension off as part off the privatisation so iff there where plans to privatise the fire service it may now be a seperate body ??
 
I knew someone who was sacked for fraud (and later found guilty in court) and lost his pension, but I presume it is rare and difficult.
 
I'd imagine you'd have to be dismissed for something pretty serious to lose your pension rights (gross misconduct, maybe?) You would lose your voluntary contributions, but they could refund the money. Probably needs advice from a pensions solicitor, not sure anyone on here will know definitively.
 
Sponsored Links
big-all said:
have the separated off the pension??
in 1994 the railway had to separate the pension off as part off the privatisation so iff there where plans to privatise the fire service it may now be a seperate body ??
Click to expand...

No . It is a Local Authority
 
JohnD said:
I knew someone who was sacked for fraud (and later found guilty in court) and lost his pension, but I presume it is rare and difficult.
Click to expand...
EddieM said:
I'd imagine you'd have to be dismissed for something pretty serious to lose your pension rights (gross misconduct, maybe?) You would lose your voluntary contributions, but they could refund the money. Probably needs advice from a pensions solicitor, not sure anyone on here will know definitively.
Click to expand...

I understand the mechanics of it, and it is a major operation to do it. You can only lose up to 65%, representing the employers contributions. There are very limited reasons, and a strict process. Section 91 and 03 are the relevant ones for the Local Authority pension scheme.

I don't need advice from a lawyer, I have no problems (yet), but I hate the bullying aspect of my local managers, and a lot of the guys are convinced that they can simply stop your pension if you are sacked. the employers use this threat to induce a resignation, as it is easier and cleaner.

I am just trying to collect as much info as possible in the hope that the next time I hear of it before the deed is done.

I have tried Googling but to no avail. If I was really bothered, I could submit a FOI request - but who to? :)
 
ask for a copy off the fund rules
also ask for guidance as to when a pension rights can become part off the disciplinary action or procedures
ask for contact details off the pension administrator and or fund manager

now i dont know iff all or non off the above apply but any information from any source can lead to further unknown avenues
i assumed you have tried your union'fed reps'other groups fed reps or union conveners' tuc 'citizens advice '
as i say havent got a clue but the more you dig the more you will find out (y)
 
Unions can be very good at fighting on behalf of employees who feel bullied.

If you left that employment, I think you would have grounds for constructive dismissal.
 
Approach the HR department of your LA and ask for a copy of your 'contract of employment' and also approach your pension provider for their T&Cs.
They should both address 'dismissal processes'.

In the mean time, stay squeaky clean and don't give them any reason to give you the push.
I know of staff being sacked for trivial reasons like taking too many unauthorised fag breaks.
 
The pension act generally prohibits forfeiture af acquired befits. However where the termination was due to serious criminal behaviour and loss of public funds, they can apply to cancel the acquired benefit.

Being sacked because you aren’t capable of the job is no where near enough. Jeez if they cancelled the pension of every incompetent public sector worker, they wouldn’t have anyone left to pay.

foi doesn’t apply here
 
So what is the pension penalty when unable to prove fitness for task, aged 55 yrs, when age 60 may be the age for full pension ?

"...If the firefighter cannot maintain fitness until age 60 and has to “choose” to retire at age 55 rather than face the sack, it looks very different. Firstly they will have a reduced career of 35 years instead of 40 years and will have an actuarial reduction of 47.1% applied..."
There was an example where a prospective pension of £17k - becomes £9k
Not a cheap scheme £300 per month quoted in document.

This was from 'Do firefighters get a “generous” pension?' a 'Fire Brigades Union (FBU) Briefing'
There was no date attached to the document so am guessing 2015 or later.
The above would be a pension 'loss' or penalty wrapped up in 'actuarial' jargon.

I think there has been a recent FBU successful court action regarding some pension changes from 2015... Perhaps the actuarial situation has changed too. ??? Perhaps the info' above is now out dated ??

Information was from 2013, see attached PDF document here :- https://www.fbu.org.uk/circular/2013hoc0622mw/fourth-period-strike-action-and-response-brandon-lewis


https://fullfact.org/news/how-generous-are-firefighters-pensions/
https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/...f-firefighters-to-get-more-generous-pensions/

-0-



 
These reductions look big, but you have to consider the economics. Accessing the scheme 5 years earlier and not paying in for another 5 years. Factor life expectancy and the reductions aren’t so harsh.

I’d let them sack me on fitness grounds over resignation unless they are willing to offer a compromise payment. Materially the same and carries significant risk to the employer.

make them follow the process carefully
 
I did say 'not a cheap scheme' but I think the £300 pm probably includes Nat' Ins', that would make the actual scheme payments around 6% of gross pm.
When I retired from aerospace, early retirement had started at age 50 with a pension accrued loss of 10% this stepped annually by 1% until aged 60, after which there was no company pension accrual reduction on retirement.

I think the Fireman's prospective retirement income on full term - includes the enhanced government old age pension - which of course he/she would not receive until official Govn' retirement age 65 or greater... So from 60 until ??? the base scheme pension alone.
I did see some data somewhere concerning Firefighters actual retirement from the service - not too many seeing the time out.

I have a feeling the nub of this situation is centred on proof of fitness or lack of. Cannot imagine even thinking about being sacked, unless I fell off a ladder during the off duty window cleaning round !! ;)

-0-
 
Last edited:
FiremanT said:
I understand the mechanics of it, and it is a major operation to do it. You can only lose up to 65%, representing the employers contributions. There are very limited reasons, and a strict process. Section 91 and 03 are the relevant ones for the Local Authority pension scheme.

I don't need advice from a lawyer, I have no problems (yet), but I hate the bullying aspect of my local managers, and a lot of the guys are convinced that they can simply stop your pension if you are sacked. the employers use this threat to induce a resignation, as it is easier and cleaner.

I am just trying to collect as much info as possible in the hope that the next time I hear of it before the deed is done.

I have tried Googling but to no avail. If I was really bothered, I could submit a FOI request - but who to? :)
Click to expand...

You are on the right path, have a read https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/2356/part/2/crossheading/forfeiture/made

The key thing the employer is "forgetting" is the dismissal has to be for a relevant offence, with financial consequences leading to recovery. There is also time limit. There have been cases where people were made redundant and then subsequent investigations found fraud/theft and they still weren't able to touch the pension, even though the individual went to prison and was made bankrupt. Proceeds of Crime wont help either.

An individual persuaded to resign under this threat should document the reasons in the resignation letter (resigning because you told me to because of my fitness to do the job in order to protect my pension). The resignation should be rejected and a grievance process triggered. Failure would create a good case for constructive dismissal. On the flip side, naughty people sometimes "forget" to mention the real reason they are quitting. e.g. steeling hose pipes and selling them on eBay etc. invited to resign to avoid further consequences.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Sponsored Links
Back
Top