please help, advice needed

[glosfire]

Good afternoon all, this is my first post here, and im looking for some advice on a consumer unit for a garage. I will explain the best i possibly can, and was advised my a local domestic electrician of what i require but wanted to double check he was telling me the easiest way to install this as i will be doing the donkey work and getting him to do the final connections.

dont mean to be under mining him, as hes a friend of mine, but i know times are hard for a lot of people and dont want to carry out work which is not required.

here goes.

i have a 12 way consumer unit in the house, which has a spare way for a mcb(no rcd protection), (sector fusebox and mcb).

At some stage a 4mm t+e cable has been buried under the ground and taken to the garage , im guessing ready for electrics to be taken into the garage which was unfinished when i brought the property.

I now want to have installed 5 double sockets, for tumble dryer,washing machine, spares for lawnmower,strimmer, and a drill etc from time to time. what size MCB would these need to be on and would they need rcd protecting? also are these best installed in a ring main? approx length of garage is 8 metres from where consumer unit will be to last socket?

2 strip lights , what size MCB? and will these need rcd protection? and 1 outside security light?, 2 way switch.

next question is, what size mcb would i be required to add to exsisting consumer unit in house in order to supply the feed to consumer unit in garage?

seen a few consumer units for a garage but am confused weather i need one with a 63a 30ma dp rcd or a 40a 30ma dp rcd?

i look forward to your help, and i know this post may seem confusing, but i allways get a second opinion on advice ive been given and compare them to make sure im not being ripped off.

sorry to my good friend who i know is on here, who has given me advice but after losing a lot of money due to wrongfull advice by companies in the past i have taken your advice and asked for advice to back up your quote

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Tell us what your friend has said you need. We can't second-guess him, and if he's in charge then he has to call the shots - as long as what he wants to do is OK then you can go with it, particularly as all this work requires notification.

 

[glosfire]

i have been advised that first of all the4mm twin and earth which is coiled up at house consumer unit, then out of building and underground in metal conduit then into garage will need to be replaced with steel armoured wire. is this correct? garage is no more than 8 metres away from house.

i was told a 16amp mcb in main consumer unit would be sufficient?
i have been advised to have the sockets on a ring main therefore would need a 32amp mcb in garage?

lights on a radial on 6amp mcb?

however where im confused is, that ifi only have a 16amp mcb in main consumer unit, supplying power to consumer unit in garage that surely i cant have a 32amp mcb there for sockets? surely i would need bigger mcb in main fusebox?

bit vague i know, hoever i have 3 quotes and all say different things, and im going on holiday in 7 days and was looking for this to be done before then. im doing all the wiring work, and sparky would be doing all connections at sockets,lights,consumer units etc

 

[riveralt]

dont mean to be under mining him, as hes a friend of mine, but i know times are hard for a lot of people and dont want to carry out work which is not required.

Relationships between customers and suppliers work both ways.

i look forward to your help, and i know this post may seem confusing, but i allways get a second opinion on advice ive been given and compare them to make sure im not being ripped off.

Relationships between customers and suppliers work both ways.

sorry to my good friend who i know is on here, who has given me advice but after losing a lot of money due to wrongfull advice by companies in the past i have taken your advice and asked for advice to back up your quote

Get a fully outlined second or third quote then compare them against your 'friends'.

Your requirements as outlined above seem more to be a fishing exercise than a real comparison of the proposal made by your 'friend'.

If you are intending to do the work yourself then please say so. Advice may then given to assist you to satisfy your Local building Control officer that you could successfully and more importantly safely complete your proposed installation.

I personally do not allow, a customer, friend or not, to 'do the donkey work' unless I supervise him/her every step of the way. Which invariably doubles the amount of time on the job.

 

[glosfire]

im shocked to see that this has been referred to as a fishing post???????? why when someone asks for advice do people jump to conclusions? i would never attempt to do this sort of work myself as im not qualified and dont want to risk my life doing electrical work. thats why everyone has there own trades.

what i was asking for was advice, as my post says i will be running the cables to sockets,lights from consumer unit place, and also fitting the consumer unit but will not be making any connections. just doing the above to save some pennies, as times are hard.

i have had 3 quotes, but they all seem to contradict each other.

1 says the exsisting t+e 4mm from main consumer unit to garage can be used as supply for new garage consumer unit, other 1 says it cant and swa should be used, last say tests on exsisiting cable need to be done to tell if cable is ok (although this cable has been connected temp to a old c/u to identify if it worked and it did, however no sockets were connected at the time, just lights).

1st quote says 16a mcb on main consumer unit, and other 2 say 32a mcb(this is to supply the garage consumer unit)

1st and 3rd quote say ring for garage sockets of 32amp mcb, 2nd says, radial sockets of 16amp.

i hope you can see why im so confused, it isnt just a friends quote theres 2 companies which are different in so many ways. As im looking to sell this house in the near future i need all certificates up together and cant afford to spend money if theres going to be a problem with the electrics.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

i have been advised that first of all the4mm twin and earth which is coiled up at house consumer unit, then out of building and underground in metal conduit then into garage will need to be replaced with steel armoured wire. is this correct?

Yes.

garage is no more than 8 metres away from house.

Relevant to the size of cable, not the type.

i was told a 16amp mcb in main consumer unit would be sufficient?

If your friend told you that you may wish to brush up on your diplomacy skills.

however where im confused is, that ifi only have a 16amp mcb in main consumer unit, supplying power to consumer unit in garage that surely i cant have a 32amp mcb there for sockets? surely i would need bigger mcb in main fusebox?

The 32A in the garage would be pretty pointless.

bit vague i know, hoever i have 3 quotes and all say different things, and im going on holiday in 7 days and was looking for this to be done before then. im doing all the wiring work, and sparky would be doing all connections at sockets,lights,consumer units etc

Given your lack of understanding and the problems you have in choosing between electricians I think that timeframe is ambitious, and likely to get you stressed out before your hol.

Go on holiday, take a few books //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books with you to read, and tackle it when you get back.

im shocked to see that this has been referred to as a fishing post????????

You'll get over it.

why when someone asks for advice do people jump to conclusions?

Although domestic electrical installation work seems to have become a lot less hazardous for electricians - the reports of sudden deaths, retirements due to ill health, and unplanned emigrations have dropped to about zero, the number of people who claim to be doing the cable installation themselves with an electrician doing second fix and testing has risen correspondingly, and the reports of electricians who can't be contacted because they are either far too busy or are away on holiday don't seem to square with the current economic climate.

what i was asking for was advice, as my post says i will be running the cables to sockets,lights from consumer unit place, and also fitting the consumer unit but will not be making any connections. just doing the above to save some pennies, as times are hard.

And they are all happy with that, are they, and all prepared to sign documents saying that they were the ones who actually did it?

i have had 3 quotes, but they all seem to contradict each other.

Go with #2.

 

[glosfire]

yet again, more sarcasm, "your get over it" see i obviously wasted my time joining this forum to ask for advice. dont expect to be spoken to like that by anyone, especially someone who doesnt even know me, i asked for advice, and although some advice has been given, none of it in the last post was really worth reading, as every part of reply is a dig towards me in some way.


but yes they have all been prepared for me to run the wiring, as wiring is clipped to surface off walls, with absolutely no connecting done what so ever, so basically im saving them a job

 

[MalcofArabia]

Let's deal with the 4mm Twin +E you say it's buried in a steel conduit, can you guarantee that it is in steel conduit all the way to the garage?? If I was the Sparks I would not take the chance and want to have a look and see. How far is the Garage from the house. That will govern what cable size you need to feed your garage CU. In all honesty you may get away with that 4mm. The reason he will want to see the cable is that when he signs off the work he will have to say that the install is to the new regulations and he will need to confirm all the cable runs.

If I was the sparks I would put your sockets on a radial not a ring. A small ring final circuit is not really good pratcice. I would run a 4mm 32amp radial for you.

At your house CU I would fit a 32amp mcb as that is all that 4mm Twin+ earth can take if that is what you want to use after the sparks as found it ok

In the garage fit a 63amp double pole switch with a 32amp and a 6amp RCBO which will give you better protection for those washing machine and Tumble dtryer.

We now get to all the really clever stuff your sparks will have to find out if he can export your earth to the garage or make the garage a TT system. He will then have to do all the tests and certifiactaion, because as you know all this work is certifiable. If I had a mate that would do all that for you then I would use him.

 

[glosfire]

Many thanks for the last reply.

what the spark said was as he can see, metal conduit coming down the wall into the ground, and metal conduit coming back out the ground again and up the inside of the garage wall then he is happy that metal conduit has been used.

the garage is no more than 6 metres away from the house.

you say 4mm radial for sockets? would 2.5 mm not be big enough ?

ok so if sparks 100% happy then main mcb will be 32amp.

you say he will need to see if he can export the earth from house to garage? what does this mean? the t+e cable has an earth wire in? is this not what you mean? or is this why he has mentioned a earth rod? sorry but im no electrician so juts trying to get to grips with it.

many thanks, things are starting to appear a bit clearer, i have emailed my queries to the sparky concerned in order to get this moving along.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

yet again, more sarcasm, "your get over it" see i obviously wasted my time joining this forum to ask for advice. dont expect to be spoken to like that by anyone, especially someone who doesnt even know me, i asked for advice, and although some advice has been given, none of it in the last post was really worth reading, as every part of reply is a dig towards me in some way.

i have been advised that first of all the4mm twin and earth which is coiled up at house consumer unit, then out of building and underground in metal conduit then into garage will need to be replaced with steel armoured wire. is this correct?

Yes.

Please explain how that was a dig at you.

garage is no more than 8 metres away from house.

Relevant to the size of cable, not the type.

Please explain how that was a dig at you.

i was told a 16amp mcb in main consumer unit would be sufficient?

If your friend told you that you may wish to brush up on your diplomacy skills.

Please explain how that was a dig at you.

however where im confused is, that ifi only have a 16amp mcb in main consumer unit, supplying power to consumer unit in garage that surely i cant have a 32amp mcb there for sockets? surely i would need bigger mcb in main fusebox?

The 32A in the garage would be pretty pointless.

Please explain how that was a dig at you.

bit vague i know, hoever i have 3 quotes and all say different things, and im going on holiday in 7 days and was looking for this to be done before then. im doing all the wiring work, and sparky would be doing all connections at sockets,lights,consumer units etc

Given your lack of understanding and the problems you have in choosing between electricians I think that timeframe is ambitious, and likely to get you stressed out before your hol.

Please explain how that was a dig at you. You do have a lack of understanding (you say yourself you're no electrician) and you are having problems choosing between electricians, because that's why you're here, so those were both factual statements, and neither were couched in insulting terms. I genuinely think you'd be better off taking a bit more time.

Go on holiday, take a few books //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books with you to read, and tackle it when you get back.

Please explain how pointing you at some books which could help you improve your understanding and thus help you evaluate the conflicting quotes you've had was a dig at you.

im shocked to see that this has been referred to as a fishing post????????

You'll get over it.

That's not sarcasm, it's a truthful observation - you will get over your shock.

why when someone asks for advice do people jump to conclusions?

Although domestic electrical installation work seems to have become a lot less hazardous for electricians - the reports of sudden deaths, retirements due to ill health, and unplanned emigrations have dropped to about zero, the number of people who claim to be doing the cable installation themselves with an electrician doing second fix and testing has risen correspondingly, and the reports of electricians who can't be contacted because they are either far too busy or are away on holiday don't seem to square with the current economic climate.

You asked why people jump to conclusions, and I gave an explanation.

Note that it wasn't I who said you were on a fishing expedition.

Please explain how it was a dig at you.

what i was asking for was advice, as my post says i will be running the cables to sockets,lights from consumer unit place, and also fitting the consumer unit but will not be making any connections. just doing the above to save some pennies, as times are hard.

And they are all happy with that, are they, and all prepared to sign documents saying that they were the ones who actually did it?

Please explain how that was a dig at you. It's far from unheard of for people to assume they can do that and then find out the hard way that it doesn't work that way. For all we know you were planning to pick which of the 3 to go for and then tell them what you wanted to do - all I was doing was enquiring if you'd told them all up front.

i have had 3 quotes, but they all seem to contradict each other.

Go with #2.

Please explain how that was a dig at you.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

what the spark said was as he can see, metal conduit coming down the wall into the ground, and metal conduit coming back out the ground again and up the inside of the garage wall then he is happy that metal conduit has been used.

That sounds like sparky #1. Malc has said that he wouldn't want to use that cable, and I've said go with #2, who also says he won't use that cable.

the garage is no more than 6 metres away from the house.

That's relevant to the size of the cable, not the type or how it's installed.

you say 4mm radial for sockets? would 2.5 mm not be big enough ?

It's what the electrician who will be signing a document to say he designed it thinks that's important.

ok so if sparks 100% happy then main mcb will be 32amp.

#2 was already saying a 32A breaker at the house end.

you say he will need to see if he can export the earth from house to garage? what does this mean? the t+e cable has an earth wire in? is this not what you mean? or is this why he has mentioned a earth rod? sorry but im no electrician so juts trying to get to grips with it.

Last time I gave you a link to reading material you said it was a dig at you, but I'll try again:

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/mag/2005/16-elect-inst-outdoors.cfm?type=pdf

many thanks, things are starting to appear a bit clearer, i have emailed my queries to the sparky concerned in order to get this moving along.

All of them, or have you already decided which to use?

 

[glosfire]

ok i do apologise for possibly miss reading things that were said.. how about i put this topic another way to try get help....


i require a consumer unit in a garage that is aprox 6 metres away from my house., my house is a tn-c-s supply.
i have a spare way in the consumer unit in my house and would like to get a consumer unit in my garage.

the garage would run 4 x double sockets , 2 x lights .

there is an exsisting 4mm t+e cable fed from consumer unit in the house to the garage area, which at some stage has had a consumer unit fitted to it supplying some temporary lights and sockets which where stripped out when i moved in, however the 4mm cable remains in place.

what advice etc would you give on getting this up and running? could i use 4mm cable and it be noted by sparky that cable was existing herefore covering himself if the niceiec etc where to carry out an inspection?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As im looking to sell this house in the near future i need all certificates up together.

Just pick the cheapest one.

 

[glosfire]

ok ive made the decision to tomorrow go and buy some swa cable to run from the existing consumer unit to where the sparky will be fitting the new consumer unit.

have informed sparky im not prepared to use the exsisting cable due to being concerned with the state of cable which we can not see.

What size swa would i need to buy?

im also picking up the sockets and light fittings tomorrow,do these need to be metal clad? or will plastic backboxes etc be ok?

i will have 5 double sockets in the garage
2 light fittings, 2 x switches

do the cable need protection in form of metal conduit or can these be simply clipped to the walls? and through roof joists where required?

also picking up the consumer unit for garage including mcb's

what would be the best set up for the 5 x sockets, 2 x lights i will be using? if sockets are on a radial the length will be no more than 7 metres to the furthest socket(furthest from consumer unit).

also the consumer unit in the house which supply is coming from is sector, what size MCB should i buy ready for this end?

will i need anything else or will sparky simply terminate swa cable into both consumer units without the need to connect any t+e ?

is 2.5mm cable sufficient for sockets and 1.5mm cable sufficent for lighting?

many thanks for your help just need these few answers in order for me to supply the materials and run the cables ready for sparky to come in either end of week or monday to do connections and testing.

 

[1john]

Put a 10.0mm 3 core cable in, this is very future proof! Dont forget glands.

Cables clipped to walls in a garage are liable to mechanical damage in my opinion.