Proof outbuildings in existence at 1st July 1948

[LarryP]

Please can anyone help me?

I am looking to knock down an outside toilet and coal storage in the backyard of a property I have bought in Salford and extend the current kitchen area over the footprint of the outside toilet and coal storage and a little bit extra, on the back yard as allowed under “Permitted Development”.

After looking on the planning portal it is suggesting that I need provide detailed proof that the existing outbuildings were there on or before 1st July 1948, to establish the base of how much I can build of the back yard (up to 50% of it as the back yard was in 1948)

Although I am sure they were, I am struggling to find the detailed proof they are asking for. I have tried the local council, the local historic libraries, the land registry, the ordnance survey company and the British library none of who can provide me with a detailed plan or drawings as the proof I am looking for.

Can anybody point me in the right direction to find the proof I require or advise me of an alternative to get around this requirement?

Can someone also confirm if it is my duty for me, as developer, to provide such proof or is it on a potential future claimant (council/neighbour etc)

 

[jeds]

Old maps sometimes show the shape of buildings. If you can find one just before 1948 that shows your house that might help. Is the house part of an estate? Are there others of the same date of similar footprint?

The proof is based on 'balance of probability'. So if you find one small piece of evidence the local authority would need some evidence to counterbalance it. If they can find nothing - then you win. My experience with local planning departments is that they won't spend much time looking. If it's there in front of them fine - but they won't go digging around too much. So any evidence might be sufficient.

 

[tony1851]

Why bother? Just knock the wc/coalshed down and build as you intend. Take photos of it first.

It is very unlikely that the council will raise any issues. If they did, you just show them the pics, and that will be the end of the matter.

You don't need to go hunting Poirot-like for every scrap of evidence, to cover yourself for something that will not arise.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

After looking on the planning portal it is suggesting that I need provide detailed proof that the existing outbuildings were there on or before 1st July 1948, to establish the base of how much I can build of the back yard (up to 50% of it as the back yard was in 1948)

Surely that would only be the case if you wanted to keep the outbuildings, and needed to show that your extension would be under 50% of the current garden, and therefore did not want the outbuildings to be counted as having used up some of that 50%?

If the council's view is that if you can't prove they were there they'll do the 50% calculation using the area of the garden including that occupied by the outbuildings then as you are removing them you've actually got a larger garden to base the 50% on than if you prove they pre-date 1948.

Seems to me you'd make things worse for yourself if you successfully prove that they were there.

e.g. total space at the back, 60m², 4m² of which has outbuildings on. If they pre-date 1948 then your garden is 56m² and your extension limit is 28m². If they post-date 1948 then your garden is 60m² and your extension limit is 30m².

Seems to me that you want the council to accept that the buildings were not there, not that they were.

Yesno?

 

[cjard]

You forgot to add the 4m back on to your 28m2 value. If they predate 48 then you can build a 32m2 extension, 4 of which is reclaimed by demoing the outbuildings. If they post date 48 they used your allowance an with them you can only build a 26, or demo them for a 30m2 extension. It is better to claim as much of your house as poss existed in 1948 because you can build on 100% of your house footprint but only 50% of your garden

 

[tony1851]

Don't forget that if you have a small front garden, you can add that to the area allowance.
Also take into account the thickness of the rear yard wall - for an average-width Salford terrace that alone should give you getting on for an extra square metre.