Pumped hot and cold supply in loft

[tryitandsee]

Have had a monsoon pump (negative head) installed to pump hot and cold to upstairs loft en suite bathroom. Consisting of bath, basin and WC. (No shower)

The plumber has insisted the pump does hot and cold, to equal the pressure through single pillar taps. He therefore fed the cold side of the pump from a new coffin tank in loft (gravity) pumped back up to loft.

New hot supply, fed from existing hot water cylinder with new essex flange (3/4 up cylinder) to pump, back up to loft.

My query is:

1. Did we have to have the cold pumped in the first place, as the mains pressure was more than adequate. (The cost of this pump is ridiculous, £350+ whereas a single fed pump would have been half that)

2. Every time we flush the loo, the pump now runs to fill it back up. Should this at least have been fitted on mains supply only? (as coffin tank right next to it under eaves with mains supply.)

It appears to have got overly complicated, I was thinking we would only need a pump for hot supply only.

NB. Normal bathroom first floor.

Am I missing the point (again), or do the water regs come into play somewhere.

I'm no way criticize the plumber, but do now feel this installation has been 'over the top'.

I would be grateful for any comments.

 

[Softus]

Have had a monsoon pump (negative head) installed to pump hot and cold to upstairs loft en suite bathroom. Consisting of bath, basin and WC. (No shower)

I don't see why it had to be negative head.

The plumber has insisted the pump does hot and cold, to equal the pressure through single pillar taps.

This is a non-sequitur.

New hot supply, fed from existing hot water cylinder with new essex flange (3/4 up cylinder) to pump, back up to loft.

No problem with that.

1. Did we have to have the cold pumped in the first place, as the mains pressure was more than adequate.

No. Unless you told him to make provision for a shower in the future.

2. Every time we flush the loo, the pump now runs to fill it back up. Should this at least have been fitted on mains supply only? (as coffin tank right next to it under eaves with mains supply.)

Well you could still change this to be fed from the mains (or indeed from the cold storage cistern).

It appears to have got overly complicated, I was thinking we would only need a pump for hot supply only.

Based on what you've said, I have to agree.

Am I missing the point (again), or do the water regs come into play somewhere.

They don't.

 

[tryitandsee]

Thanks Softus.
I am having a constant battle with this plumber and feel bamboozled by all his rhetoric. He never shuts up.

I will get him to supply the loo with mains pressure. The extra noise throughout the house at night from the pump is ridiculous.

Basin and wc now fitted and both are leaking. He has relayed what was newly laid chipboard flooring, which now looks like second hand boards, with damaged edges, where he used a screwdriver to prise them up with.
Looking forward to my meeting with the 'foreman' tomorrow, lets hope we keep it civil.

 

[Softus]

I am having a constant battle with this plumber and feel bamboozled by all his rhetoric. He never shuts up.
.
.
.
Basin and wc now fitted and both are leaking. He has relayed what was newly laid chipboard flooring, which now looks like second hand boards, with damaged edges, where he used a screwdriver to prise them up with.

Cut your losses - get someone that you get on with.

 

[shorky]

Have had a monsoon pump (negative head) installed to pump hot and cold to upstairs loft en suite bathroom. Consisting of bath, basin and WC. (No shower

you have not told us whether or not you have mixer taps, this will determine whether you would be better off with balanced pressures, i would have suggested to pipe balanced pressures regardless, but mains to the w/c would have been better.

Did we have to have the cold pumped in the first place, as the mains pressure was more than adequate. (The cost of this pump is ridiculous, £350+ whereas a single fed pump would have been half that)

we as installers do not make rrp prices on the goods we purchase, there are a lot of twin impellor pumps that would cost half the price, if you was bothered with the price of the pump you should have aired your views before the work started, not start haggaling after the work is done, this just suggestes your want to get out of paying someone an agreed price which is very unproffesional as a customer, if you wanted your toilet off the mains you could have asked for it or better still asked if the pump would start etc and it could of been changed before it got this far, your installer should of explained the situation that is my only criticism of him.

your installer has supplied you with a top quality pump that will last you for years, not a diy hut special, that would cause you nothing but greif, you should also be grateful that the guy hasn't drawn money and f*4ked off by now, because there are a lot out there that would have, so if this guy carries out good work be grateful.

I don't see why it had to be negative head.

softus, i do, if the coffin tank is on the floor as it probably is in a loft conversion then the highest draw off will be above the cold tank and therfore will need a neg head pump to operate the flow switches when water is drawn.

please excuse the way this reply is displayed, made a right hash of the quote/unquote business and it will not letme rectify it.

 

[Paul Barker]

Woodchip flooring doesn't come up good.

Amaises me how some poeple in building trade do something really arogant and just front up to you over it, or you don't feel you can say anything.

Yesterday was fixing a boiler the pipework to which had been placed right across the front of a double socket outlet. I said to the customer "why didn't he blank that off?"... "I don't know, we're sick of people asking us".

I almost felt like taking the pipes out, blanking it off and puting them back but I was a little busy with easter coming up.

I just can't believe someone would do that. If this is where part P has led us, thanks Anthony.

 

[Softus]

you have not told us whether or not you have mixer taps

The OP already said pillar taps.

this will determine whether you would be better off with balanced pressures, i would have suggested to pipe balanced pressures regardless

If the OP would be better off with unbalanced pressures, then why would you have said balanced "regardless"?

we as installers do not make rrp prices on the goods we purchase, there are a lot of twin impellor pumps that would cost half the price, if you was bothered with the price of the pump you should have aired your views before the work started, not start haggaling after the work is done

Where has the OP haggled?!

this just suggestes your want to get out of paying someone an agreed price which is very unproffesional as a customer, if you wanted your toilet off the mains you could have asked for it or better still asked if the pump would start etc and it could of been changed before it got this far, your installer should of explained the situation that is my only criticism of him.

Utter self-contradicting nonsense, throughout.

you should also be grateful that the guy hasn't drawn money and f*4ked off by now, because there are a lot out there that would have, so if this guy carries out good work be grateful.

Grateful! For not being ripped off! He has a right not to be ripped off.

I don't see why it had to be negative head.

softus, i do, if the coffin tank is on the floor as it probably is in a loft conversion then the highest draw off will be above the cold tank and therfore will need a neg head pump to operate the flow switches when water is drawn.

Yes, but you've assumed that there's a negative head, without checking.

 

[tryitandsee]

I leave for work, as every one has too, to earn the bloody money to pay the plumber to do a job that he is skilled at doing. When I come back in the evening I note the work he has carried out. The next day I question the need for plumbing the wc to the pump, am then told this is normal and buildings regs...... blarr.blarr, blarr bloody blarr.

I enjoy this forum because it's a way of finding helpful knowledge/facts gleaned from people that have many years of experience, professional or amature or have learned from past mistakes.

So, armed with these opinions at least I have cut through this plumbers cr#p/bulsh*t and got him to change the wc over to mains pressure. No more noisy pump late at night.

Shorky, I can now appreciate that the pump is top quality and hope to god I don't have to replace it in my lifetime.

I wonder Shorky, if you are lucky enough to have your car serviced, you sit in with the mechanic and discuss his plan of attack when changing the head gasket. get real.

 

[shorky]

Have had a monsoon pump (negative head) installed to pump hot and cold

softus, not here to have a slagging match, but you have overlooked the OP first sentence as i had overlooked the pillar taps, there must be a negative head situation for the hot to be pumped, still is better if fitting a pump, to pump both hot and cold, if not for now, as you suggested the OP might want a shower fitted at a later date or a mixer tap of some description, no alteration of pipework needed nor the need for check valves.

Grateful! For not being ripped off! He has a right not to be ripped off

who mentioned about anybody being ripped off, i certainly didn't, nobody should be ripped off, that is not the point i was making.

I wonder Shorky, if you are lucky enough to have your car serviced, you sit in with the mechanic and discuss his plan of attack when changing the head gasket.

i'm not lucky to have my car serviced, i pay for it, it's not a treat, i choose the proffesional i use wisely, i have confidence that he will change the head gasket with no problems, if i wanted the job done in a particular way i'm sure he would pass me the tools to do the job and tell me to get on with it as i seem to know more about the job than him.

i suggest you become wiser at choosing tradesmen and ask the relevant questions first, rather than asking other tradesmen to comment on a situation we cannot see

 

[Softus]

softus, not here to have a slagging match

Fair play; standing down to DEFCON 5.

...but you have overlooked the OP first sentence as i had overlooked the pillar taps, there must be a negative head situation for the hot to be pumped

I know it looks like I overlooked it, but I have a habit of not making any assumptions. In interests of remaining open-minded, I was, and still am (until the location of the CSS is revealed), prepared to believe that a negative pump wasn't necessary.

...still is better if fitting a pump, to pump both hot and cold, if not for now, as you suggested the OP might want a shower fitted at a later date or a mixer tap of some description, no alteration of pipework needed nor the need for check valves.

Maybe. The jury's still out on that one.

Grateful! For not being ripped off! He has a right not to be ripped off

who mentioned about anybody being ripped off, i certainly didn't, nobody should be ripped off, that is not the question.

You mentioned being ripped off, albeit without using that term. What else did you imply by the following:

you should also be grateful that the guy hasn't drawn money and f*4ked off by now, because there are a lot out there that would have, so if this guy carries out good work be grateful.

i'm not lucky to have my car serviced, i pay for it, it's not a treat, i choose the proffesional i use wisely, i have confidence that he will change the head gasket with no problems, if i wanted the job done in a particular way i'm sure he would pass me the tools to do the job and tell me to get on with it as i seem to know more about the job than him. get real

You should also be grateful that the mechanic doesn't draw money and f*4k off with your car, because there are a lot out there that do, so if your mechanic carries out good work be grateful.

i suggest you become wiser at choosing tradesmen and ask the relevant questions first, rather than asking other tradesmen to comment on a situation we cannot see

This is bizarre. The whole forum is about giving advice where we cannot see the situation. If you're struggling with that I don't understand what you're doing here.

 

[shorky]

You mentioned being ripped off, albeit without using that term. What else did you imply by the following:

Quote:
you should also be grateful that the guy hasn't drawn money and f*4ked off by now, because there are a lot out there that would have, so if this guy carries out good work be grateful.

by this i mean that if someone starts to query your expertise and they know little or nothing about your job, there either not happy with your work or they may well be trying to knock your price down, this pipework situation must have been discussed at an earlier stage. whichever way, i would not like to find myself in that situation, makes for a poor customer relationship and i would part company.

As this posting continues, you show me that you do not like people criticising your opinions

This is bizarre. The whole forum is about giving advice where we cannot see the situation. If you're struggling with that I don't understand what you're doing here.

i do not mind giving diy'ers advice, which is what i thought the name of the forum suggests, what i find bewildering is how the OP wants expert advice so he's got bullets to fire at someone, if this guy chose a better company or soletrader he may not be in this position he's in now.

You should also be grateful that the mechanic doesn't draw money and f*4k off with your car, because there are a lot out there that do, so if your mechanic carries out good work be grateful.

your obviously losing the plot, i pay a good tradesman that i trust and do not have to query, so he would not need to f*4k off with my car, grow up man.

stepping up to DEFCON 5

that's all i have to say on this subject, it could go on forever, i posted my opinion, if you or the OP don't like it TOUGH

 

[Softus]

i mean that if someone starts to query your expertise and they know little or nothing about your job, there either not happy with your work or they may well be trying to knock your price down, this pipework situation must have been discussed at an earlier stage. whichever way, i would not like to find myself in that situation, makes for a poor customer relationship and i would part company.

You've said absolutely nothing about why you used the word "grateful", and why you believe that the OP should be "grateful" not to have lost money.

As this posting continues, you show me that you do not like people criticising your opinions

Oh, the boot is actually on the other foot though isn't it. For example, show me one instance of an opinion that I've given on this topic, that you've disagree with, or criticised, and that I've objected to.

You can't because it hasn't happened, and that's because I tend to steer clear of opinions but give reasoned advice. Something you might want to try out, instead of careering between assumptions like you're in a pinball machine.

i do not mind giving diy'ers advice, which is what i thought the name of the forum suggests, what i find bewildering is how the OP wants expert advice so he's got bullets to fire at someone, if this guy chose a better company or soletrader he may not be in this position he's in now.

It's not in the least bit bewildering - people do it here all the time. And so far the OP's only criticism of the plumber has been that he talks too much. He even said "I'm no way criticize the plumber"!

You should also be grateful that the mechanic doesn't draw money and f*4k off with your car, because there are a lot out there that do, so if your mechanic carries out good work be grateful.

your obviously losing the plot

The only obvious thing here is that you don't readily recognise irony when you're being clouted with a lump of it.

 

[tryitandsee]

I am still keen to learn from people like yourselves and have done so on this topic.

This plumber will not admit to the senseless connection to the wc with this pump. All I got from him was some made up blurb about water regs and other made up cr*p. The truth of the matter being, he could not be bothered to run a separate supply from the main, supplying the coffin tank.

Softus put me on the right track and I gratefully fired the bullets and saved what I consider, no noise at the dead of night throughout the house when I have a bloo*dy pee. Also the wear and tear on this expensive pump, running every time it's flushed. Let alone in my inexperienced way of thinking, if the wc started to leak/overflow it would have the pump to help push out vast quantities of water. I have never questioned the price of the overall job and was happy with what I could assess at the time, a reasonable plumber.

Why Shorky do you object to someone who asks questions regarding the installation of pipework in their own house. It is after all, me in this case, who is paying for it.

The two pipe system is probably the right way to go and I accept that this may be the case.

What really bugs me, is when found out regarding their own bul*hit, they take such umbrage, and yes he probably will fu*k off.

 

[Softus]

I am still keen to learn from people like yourselves and have done so on this topic.

It's gratifying to know that. However...

This plumber will not admit to the senseless connection to the wc with this pump. All I got from him was some made up blurb about water regs and other made up cr*p. The truth of the matter being, he could not be bothered to run a separate supply from the main, supplying the coffin tank.

I believe one of shorky's underlying points was that it's possible that your plumber is genuine and competent, and I'd be loathe to assume anything different. I'm slightly disenchanted to find that you've swung from your "no criticism" stance to accusing him of laziness and telling untruths.

Let alone in my inexperienced way of thinking, if the wc started to leak/overflow it would have the pump to help push out vast quantities of water.

You're not quite right - the effect would be the same, because (after the initial surge) the rate of flow through the pump would be constrained by the incoming water rate, and so would waste no more than if the pump didn't feed the WC.

 

[Paul Barker]

All my life we haven't flushed the loo in the night. We must be odd.