PWA and chimney

[dormermike]

Hello

A neighbour of a relative removed their side of a chimney which forms part of the adjoining wall in a semi detached bungalow. My relative wasn't asked for PWA approval but did give verbal approval to remove the chimney pots on top of the roof and close off the opening, so the small amount of stack at the top was removed. It was all done from the neighbours side and from outside on top of the roof. Relative has since passed away and bungalow sold to another relative. We notice the stack on our side has slight movement when gently pushed against. I'm assuming this isn't normal and is dangerous?

What is the correct course of action - builder to advise, or structural engineer assessment, or back to neighbour to see if the work was done with building control approval and signoff ? The work was done at least 4 years ago so IF the neighbours work caused this it's been like it since then.

Thanks

 

[^woody^]

Always get advice from someone who has no interest in the work that they may recommend, ie an engineer or surveyor, not a builder.

Also builders build, they are not normally qualified to say why things have moved or be in disrepair.

An homeowner is responsible for damage they cause to neighbour's property. Party Wall agreement or not, the owner of the damaged property has six years to make their claim. Proving it is the difficult thing.

Party Wall Act applies to the wall, not the chimney and not the chimney above the roof.

Building control involvement is largely irrelevant to any damage. But not having approval can help with any court claim as it casts aspersions on the neighbour and their integrity.

 

[dormermike]

Thanks Woody.

My understanding of the PWA is that it applies to the chimney structure if that is attached to the party wall, but sounds like from your reply I'm wrong on that?

Just for clarity on "our side" the chimney is intact in the attic and in the two rooms below, i.e. as it was built. The neighbour has completely removed the entire stack on their side, and the entirety of the chimney above the roofline.

It's the part in the attic that seems to wobble slightly when leaned on.

Seems to me at the least the attic part needs to be taken down, or otherwise made safe.

Thanks

 

[^woody^]

The PWA applies to the wall only. If there is a chimney breast attached, the Act comes in to play when you start to work on the connection of the breast to the party wall, not specifically the whole breast or the bits not directly joined to the party wall.

Typically this means that if removing the breast, the PWA will apply, but if say you just want to cut into the breast to drop a TV in, the Act wont apply

 

[dormermike]

Righto thanks, that makes sense. So as they've removed the entire stack on their side which was attached to the wall between the two buildings, so the PWA would seem to apply.

Technically it's nothing to do with me as I've sold my share of the property but I'm concerned in case this is a safety issue and keen to do the right thing. Hence seeking advice first, as I know builders are not the right people to ask. Problem is I've had some right numpty structural engineers out in the past too, and I'm pretty sure they would just say yup it's wobbly. I need someone to look at both sides and determine the cause of the failure. You mention surveyor above - do I just Google for a local building surveyor and ask them to come round and look?

 

[jeds]

Mike, at this stage the PWA isn't really relevant. The act has a role in determining how works would be carried out, how the chimney should be stabilised, access, timing etc. but once the works are done, that's it. There are no provisions in the act for anything that occurs afterwards. Where it might have some influence after the event is if some damage was caused by the works and a dispute ended up in court. Under the act, a court is more limited as to what it might award than it would be if the act wasn't followed. But, unless somebody ends up in court, you might as well forget about the PWA.

So, from what you say it sounds like the neighbours work more than likely destabilised the chimney and left it in a precarious state. But, let's say it did and let's say you get that confirmed. What do you think might be the next course of action from there. Do you think there's a possibility of taking some sort of legal action or do you think it might just be a case of carrying out some repairs?

 

[dormermike]

Mike, at this stage the PWA isn't really relevant. The act has a role in determining how works would be carried out, how the chimney should be stabilised, access, timing etc. but once the works are done, that's it. There are no provisions in the act for anything that occurs afterwards. Where it might have some influence after the event is if some damage was caused by the works and a dispute ended up in court. Under the act, a court is more limited as to what it might award than it would be if the act wasn't followed. But, unless somebody ends up in court, you might as well forget about the PWA.

So, from what you say it sounds like the neighbours work more than likely destabilised the chimney and left it in a precarious state. But, let's say it did and let's say you get that confirmed. What do you think might be the next course of action from there. Do you think there's a possibility of taking some sort of legal action or do you think it might just be a case of carrying out some repairs?

To answer your question - i'm really not sure, and just came here for advice. As I say its not really my problem directly but i do feel some responsibility. I would also be looking to have the neighbour confirm exactly what was done and signed off/BC on their side, and if they've had it done poorly or not by the book possibly to make a contribution. Sounds from yours and woodies replies that is a very long shot, but equally, its helpful to have facts at hand before making any approach.

Also in terms of stabilising whats there, would repointing usually be successful, or if the chimney stack / brickwork is not used as a chimney, its probably better to take it all down? Presumably that would be notifiable to the neighbour. Its a double that joins in the attic then goes up, originally through the top of the roof. Not clear if it was capped off or what happened to the top of it below the tiles.

 

[jeds]

It's hard to say what the remedy might be without being able to see the exact situation. The legal route is very hard work and has to be worth it to even start. At the moment the courts are quoting 3, 4, 5 years to even get to a hearing. I'm not trying to put you off - just that whoever takes this action has to have fairly deep reserves - of money as well as energy - with no definite outcome.

I think I would approach the neighbour to begin with and make them aware of the issue. You never know, they might feel a bit guilty and offer to help.

 

[dormermike]

Thanks, appreciate all the insights.

I also just reached the conclusion that the buyers have some responsibility here as the stack itself is entirely exposed, and they are as familiar with the property as I am, and had every opportunity to carry out any inspection, so there is an element of caveat emptor. Regardless, all the above info is very helpful and thanks again.

 

[cdbe]

I doubt you would convince any court what was or wasn't agreed by a deceased previous owner four years ago, building control probably wouldn't have had any involvement if the whole breast was removed.

Presumably what's left in the loft on your side isn't tied into the party wall particularly well so could need strapping to it or removing.