Question about removed chimney breast

[Ipan]

Hello, I am about to purchase a 1930s semi-detached house but there is one final issue and I need some help to decide if I should further pressure the vendor about it or not.

The house used to have a fireplace, but it was removed by the vendor when they purchased the house around 7 years ago.

The fireplace is on a party wall so based on my understanding it would have needed a party wall agreement and building regulations for the chimney breast to be removed. I did a level 3 survey and one of the things raised is that they did not find any paperwork about the chimney breast removal. The surveyor did not raise any issues with the house.

We enquired about that but the vendor's solicitor has twice denied that any work has been done. They said that no work has been carried in relation to the chimney or the chimney breast. Which is not true as the vendor has told me in a message that “I closed the wall of the chimney but not the chimney so if you want you can open it again”. I also tried to contact the vendor directly but they have not replied to my messages.

I am not sure if the chimney breast is within the wall and what they have removed is decorative and not load bearing hence their reply, but they did not even mention that. And you can see from the pictures that obviously something was removed. The chimney stack and the breast on the first floor are still present.

So my question is, would removing the chimney breast/fireplace/whatever that is called, shown on the picture would require a structural engineer, a steel beam to be placed and all the paperwork mentioned above, in which case I should ask (again) for proof that this work has been done properly or hire a structural engineer to check?

Or it is purely decorative so it is not worth further pursuing it and move on to the exchange?

 

[Notch7]

Hello, I am about to purchase a 1930s semi-detached house but there is one final issue and I need some help to decide if I should further pressure the vendor about it or not.

The house used to have a fireplace, but it was removed by the vendor when they purchased the house around 7 years ago.

The fireplace is on a party wall so based on my understanding it would have needed a party wall agreement and building regulations for the chimney breast to be removed. I did a level 3 survey and one of the things raised is that they did not find any paperwork about the chimney breast removal. The surveyor did not raise any issues with the house.

We enquired about that but the vendor's solicitor has twice denied that any work has been done. They said that no work has been carried in relation to the chimney or the chimney breast. Which is not true as the vendor has told me in a message that “I closed the wall of the chimney but not the chimney so if you want you can open it again”. I also tried to contact the vendor directly but they have not replied to my messages.

I am not sure if the chimney breast is within the wall and what they have removed is decorative and not load bearing hence their reply, but they did not even mention that. And you can see from the pictures that obviously something was removed. The chimney stack and the breast on the first floor are still present.

So my question is, would removing the chimney breast/fireplace/whatever that is called, shown on the picture would require a structural engineer, a steel beam to be placed and all the paperwork mentioned above, in which case I should ask (again) for proof that this work has been done properly or hire a structural engineer to check?

Or it is purely decorative so it is not worth further pursuing it and move on to the exchange?

At ceiling level the chimney is flush with the wall so there isn’t anything to be supported above.

as it’s a party wall then I can only presume the chimney is within the party wall - is it a joint chimney ?

it you have photos of the property have a look at the room directly above - if it’s got no chimney breast, then there’s no problem

 

[DAZB]

Sounds like they removed the stonework surround and boarded over the opening so they have not done anything structural to it so all ok.

 

[Ipan]

At ceiling level the chimney is flush with the wall so there isn’t anything to be supported above.

as it’s a party wall then I can only presume the chimney is within the party wall - is it a joint chimney ?

it you have photos of the property have a look at the room directly above - if it’s got no chimney breast, then there’s no problem

This is the room above. I am not sure if that thing on the left is a chimney breast or not.

I think it is likely that it is a joint chimney as you can see from the roof screenshot. Bottom half is the house I am purchasing.

 

[HERTS P&D]

Go and ask the neighbours, see what they have.

It is always good to see who the neighbours are anyway.

Andy

 

[^woody^]

If there is a chimney stack, there would be a chimney breast.

Whether any removed breast required support for any remaining breast depends on the specifics. An engineer or supporting beams is not a prerequisite.

Whilst removal of a breast would require building regulation approval, if there is none that does not mean the work is unsafe - just unauthorised. Many people would accept the work as long as it is safe, however for legal or insurance reasons the correct advice is to ensure that unauthorised work gets authorised - i.e. regularised under the building regulations, otherwise it's deja-vu when the next buyer comes along.

Party Wall Act issues are irrelevant now once the work is done. However, damage to the party wall or building generally is covered under normal property law.

I would be concerned if any surveyor did not report that the breast that should be there was not there. What other things have they missed?

 

[Ipan]

The surveyor wrote in the report that they did not find any paperwork about the chimney breast removal, so my solicitor should enquire about that. We did so and the vendor's solicitor denied twice that any work has been carried out by them. However you can clearly see from the first post that there was a fireplace when the vendor bought the house, although the chimney does not look like it provides any support.

I spoke with my surveyor today an he said that the chimney breast can be seen in the roof void and bedroom (pic I uploaded above) so it has definitively been removed at ground floor at some point. There was no access to the floor void to view the support (if any), so they cannot confirm whether there is adequate support, and that he would ask the vendor to have a SE’s report on the chimney breast.

 

[camerart]

Hi I,
You could check next door and see what's at the same position in their house.
Camerart

 

[Ipan]

I sent a message to the vendor and got this response: The fireplace was a gas heater which was removed and then covered with plasterboard.

Also got a photo from when the fireplace was removed and a page from their building report about that chimney.

Not sure if that means all good or I should still hire a structural engineer to check.

 

[Ipan]

Btw the surveyor said that based on this photo, it looks like the ground wall has been slightly brought inside compared to first floor, so that it is why there was no visible chimney breast and that all should be good.

 

[Notch7]

I sent a message to the vendor and got this response: The fireplace was a gas heater which was removed and then covered with plasterboard.

Also got a photo from when the fireplace was removed and a page from their building report about that chimney.

Not sure if that means all good or I should still hire a structural engineer to check.

That says it's an internal chimney breast - but I think your report said there was a chimney breast in the loft - so maybe the whole wall is built out in the lounge so you don't have a projecting chimney breast

 

[Ipan]

Yes that is what the surveyor said as well. And what I hypothesised but from the floor plans did not seem to be the case.

I will go tomorrow and measure just in case.