Rotten Door Frame - Repairable?

[fiscoking1]

Hello,

I have a hard wood door and frame (Sapele) on the rear of the house. It's about 12 years old. It's re-painted with Saddolin exterior timber paint every 3 years or so. I do follow the instructions on the tin.

I noticed the bottom of the frame was going dark and there was water beneath the paint, so I used a (blunt) painters scraping knife to pull the paint back. While doing this I noticed the wood was very soft. You could just push the scraping knife right in.

So....I went digging to see how much of the frame was rotten. About 6 inches on one side, all the way back.. Pictures attached.

It looks as though water has run into the weather strip from the door and on the frame at the bottom. I should have added a drip strip to the door when it was fitted 12 years ago, and a porch roof so it's not wet every time it rains. Live and learn.

My question is; can this be repaired? It will need a new block of hardwood knocking in with waterproof PVA. It will then need to be stained again to match the rest of the door and frame (both Sapele). Maybe do both side of the frame so it all matches. Seems a shame to condemn the whole installation just because of 6 inches of rot. The actual door is fine. What do you think?



Thanks.

 

[foxhole]

It’s quite doable, but external flush frames will always rot quickly.

 

[fiscoking1]

Thanks for the reply.

I've telephoned few joinery businesses and none are interested. They only want to create a whole frame. The term for cutting out and replacing the bottom leg of a frame is called 'splicing', so I'm told. That means a day of installation and a whole lot of painting to get it to match the door.

This seems to be a common problem for external timber frames. Of all the videos I've seen on youtube about this, people are painting the frame a flat opaque colour and this hides any differences in the new timber spliced in. If you have a light stained frame like mine then it's many times more difficult. The stain has been built up over many years using different stain types. Even if you could get the same timber, you'd need a specialist to match it, or just keep applying paint every 24 hours until it looks right.

Then there's the issue of the edge profile to match. It's not a simple right angle. Custom frame (recessed edge), so I have no idea where to get the profile used.

I'm beginning to see why people love UPVC / Composite external doors.

Looks like I'm going to have to botch it, or go for a whole new frame. If the frame is write off then I may as well try the botch first. Thinking cap on....

 

[foxhole]

Joiner could take all day to repair that while he could probably replace just as quick.

 

[crank39]

Thats the thing, a joiner could spend all day maybe 2 with painting and is probably going to want a day rate of at least £150 so straight away the cost of repair outweighs the replacement, the person you need is a retired joiner who wants to get out of his wifes hair for a day or 2, can afford to dedicate the time an not be rushed to start another job and will do it for a few beer tokens, a tradesman will want to fit a frame all day long

 

[Old Salt]

I had a joiner fit internal doors. A new frame installed by the builder was not square and rather than mess around trying to sort it, he ripped it out and fitted a new wider frame that gave him wiggle room on the stud wall. End result about 25 quid on the bill and saved about half a days labour cost.

 

[fiscoking1]

I had a joiner fit internal doors. A new frame installed by the builder was not square and rather than mess around trying to sort it, he ripped it out and fitted a new wider frame that gave him wiggle room on the stud wall. End result about 25 quid on the bill and saved about half a days labour cost.

Yep, but internal door frames are generally hidden front and back by architrave, and being made of softwood can be had for 25 quid trade. No wooden threshold on an internal door either. I doubt softwood would last very long exposed to the elements. I have a window attached to my door frame; that means a custom frame.

Joiner could take all day to repair that while he could probably replace just as quick.

Yep, but I'd need to have a new frame and adjoining window for him to fit. That's another custom frame. If it was just a door frame, no problem. A hardwood frame costs about 75 quid. Add a day to install / rehang the door and that's just over 225. Not the end of the world. A custom frame on the other hand comes in at 300 (at least) and there's a 4 month wait time at present (one shop quoted me 6 months). After fitting (assuming they can re-use the glass) and it's change from 450. DIY painting on top of that (50), so half a grand.

What I'm looking for is to *fix* the existing frame. You don't have to replace the whole body on a car when one wing rusts. When it comes to joinery, we seem to have lost the skills to fix things. That's no slight on the trade, I guess people have just gotten used to throwing away and buying new, and the trade has adjusted to that way of life.

Replacing just the hinge side of the frame would work, top to bottom. Then the profile wouldn't matter as much. I've been ringing round all afternoon trying to find a timber merchant that sells individual hardwood door jams; no joy. Will have to find a workshop that could make me one. That's probably the best compromise.

 

[Old Salt]

I wasnt suggesting you replaced it with a softwood frame I was trying (obviously poorly) to explain why a tradesman would want to just replace the whole thing. Because its easier, quicker and probably cheaper, due to labour costs, than trying to repair yours.

 

[crank39]

A few questions

• Why do you think you need the adjoining window, your first pic shows they are two seperate frames
• Why do you need custom, is the opening brick size not standard, what size is the door itself
• B&Q/Howdens sell off the shelf hardwood self assembly frames(4 piece) in stock for £50/80, why are you trying to buy just the jambs?

 

[fiscoking1]

A few questions

• Why do you think you need the adjoining window, your first pic shows they are two seperate frames

I've attached a picture of the door & window from the inside. The frame of both is visible. Notice how it's all flush and stained the same colour. That's the appeal, at least to me. It looks nice. I want to keep that. If I just replace the door frame, it has to be the exact same depth front to back, or the new door frame is going to be shallow / proud. I want to avoid that. The depth of the door frame is 95mm. This appears to be a non-standard size. Howdens go up to 90mm in hardwood. So...if replace the door frame, then it makes sense to do the window frame as well, so it will remain flush & look as though it matches, but only because I cannot find a frame that's the exact same depth as existing.

A few questions

• Why do you need custom, is the opening brick size not standard, what size is the door itself

The door is a standard 2.5ft. The frame was custom made to fill the brick opening, I know because I sent the dimensions over to the joinery shop 12/13 years ago. Unless the new frame matches the depth and width of the existing, it's not going to fit. Too shallow /proud on the depth, or a bigger gap on the wall (too narrow). Too wide is OK as it can be planed down from the outside.

A few questions

• B&Q/Howdens sell off the shelf hardwood self assembly frames(4 piece) in stock for £50/80, why are you trying to buy just the jambs?

Yes, thanks. I've looked at their products but the depths are too shallow. Trying to buy a single jamb because it's only one of the jambs that's gone. The less I replace, the less I have to re-stain, and it's a pain to get right when you want a match. I know as I have 2 other external timber doors that need care every few years (iroko & red cedar). Thankfully, it's the jamb on the outside that's gone. If I replace that, any difference will be less noticeable. While it's tempting to jump at replacing the whole door frame, I think that's going to create a lot more work with the window frame match.

I'll call the joinery shop that did the frame tomorrow and see if they can make me up a new jamb to the same dimensions. Their website is still going.

Regards.

 

[fiscoking1]

Finally finished the repair during the hot weather.

Had a new jamb made. 60 Quid. They couldn't match the timber and the new jamb was darker so I had to re-stain the rest of the frame to match.

I can understand why the joiners I had round to quote only wanted to fit a new frame. Pulling out the old jamb without wrecking the existing frame was time consuming. M&T joint with a long screw on top of that. Then digging out all the rotten timber and cutting new timber down to fill the large hole. Rotted wood hardener. Two part filler on top of that. Then sanding. Cutting the new jamb profile with a chisel (it's not just a right angle cut - see pictures).

Used four 6 inch PH3 screws to hold the new jamb to the wall (hidden by timber plugs) in and made a make shift M&T joint using some plugs on the base of the jam. There's no other way to create a M&T joint (that I know of) *without* pulling the frame out and apart. Using screws on the base not an option. That's why the frame rotted in the first place. Waterproof PVA top and bottom duing install as well.

The door is solid hard wood. 30KG at least. Was a pain to re-hang. I'd forgotten how to hang a door and it took me all day by myself to get it to close properly ;-O Almost needed back physio. No joke.

For anyone that's interested, the frame rotted because the joiner that put the aluminium weather guard in on the threshold used screws. Water runs down the door into the alu guard and out to the ends where the screws were. There's a hole in the alu guard but that doesn't seem to work very well. After chopping out the old jamb, the rest of it was fine, so the paint did its job of protecting the timber.

Removal and fitting took 3 days with another 3 for staining (24hr between coats).

Pictures attached.

Regards.