Security Lights, Outdoor Lights

[murphyabu]

Morning all,

I have the current setup at the rear of the house,

There are two spot lights on the left of the house turned on/off with a fused switch spur from inside,

There are two spot lights on the right of the house turned on/off with a fused switch spur from inside,

So two separate switches to operate the two pairs of lights.

I have attached photos below and as you can tell they are not up to much and are on their last legs. Whilst checking the lights over i found that the left light of both pairs has a permanent live supply (T&E) and then a switched live running to the light switches within the house.

Now while i would like to update the light fittings which should'nt pose a problem i would also like to integrate a security floodlight on a PIR which isn't dependent on a light switch to work but could be turned on with a light switch for BBQ's etc,

What would be the best way to achieve this?

My current mindset would be to swap the new light fittings for new ones and then run a length of flex to the security light from the fittings with the permanent live, would four core allow the permanent live to be carried to the light fitting and then a switched live to be able to turn the fitting on manually....

Any advice would be appreciated,

(I was previously considering LED flood lights (mentioned on the forum) but until the cost comes down and reliability is proven i'll be sticking to halogens)

Untitled

• murphyabu
• 13 May 2014
• 1

Untitled

• murphyabu
• 13 May 2014
• 1

 

[AndyPRK]

alot of PIR lights have an override function.

By flicking the main supply to the light off and on briefly, will turn the light on permeantly. So rewiring shouldn't be required.
But check the instructions to ensure it has this function.

 

[murphyabu]

If i was to go down that route though wouldn't that mean the spotlights would be on continuously in order to give the PIR a live feed which would kind of defeat the object of having lights only come on when activated by the PIR,

 

[AndyPRK]

I'm not sure what your thinking of.

Maybe replace 2 lights with one light with inbuilt PIR.

 

[EFLImpudence]

wouldn't that mean the spotlights would be on continuously in order to give the PIR a live feed which would kind of defeat the object of having lights only come on when activated by the PIR,

Not sure what is meant either but.

You have to have the switch ON permanently (or a permanent supply (not wise)) for it to work.

 

[JohnW2]

If i was to go down that route though wouldn't that mean the spotlights would be on continuously in order to give the PIR a live feed which would kind of defeat the object of having lights only come on when activated by the PIR,

I think you may have misunderstood Andy. As he said, many (probably most) PIRs have a an over-ride facility which means that one doesn't have to take a switched-live back to a switch to also get manual switching.

Such PIRs normally work as expected, the light only coming on when the PIR detects motion (even though the live feed is always 'live'). However, if one switches the live feed to the PIR off, then back on, very quickly, the light comes on permanently. When one wants to turn the light off and return to normal PIR functionality, one switches off the live feed for a few seconds, and then back on.

Most PIR lights also have a switched-live output, which could be used to power other lights off the same PIR (with the same functionality for all lights, including over-ride if available)

Kind Regards, John

 

[murphyabu]

Hi guys,

If your suggesting i wire the light fitting as shown below then the security light wont function when the switch is turned off,

If i want the security light to work and leave the supply on that would mean the two spotlights are also on,

I was considering whether it would be possible to wire the security light to permanent live feed coming in using four core flex and use the fourth core to connect the switch live to the switched output from the PIR therefore bypassing the function of the PIR. Then when the switch is turned off again the security light PIR still functions as it is being fed from the permanent supply,

Does that make sense or am i barking up the wrong tree completely?

Regards

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• murphyabu
• 13 May 2014
• 1

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, I see what you mean now.

However, you cannot operate lights on the same circuit and same switch separately.

For what you want, you will need another switch and an additional cable to the security light.

 

[murphyabu]

Would it not be possible to wire it in the manner below? With the switch live from wired into the PIR load (output)?

Don't take the actual wiring route shown as how it would be done, it's representative,

I was considering a four core into the junctionon the left,

Live > PIR LIVE
Neutral > PIR Neutral
Earth > PIR Earth
S/Live > PIR Load/Output

Untitled

• murphyabu
• 13 May 2014
• 1

 

[JohnW2]

If your suggesting i wire the light fitting as shown below then the security light wont function when the switch is turned off, If i want the security light to work and leave the supply on that would mean the two spotlights are also on,

OK, I understand. However, as EFLI has said, you cannot have two separate lights controlled by one switch on one circuit - as he said, you'd need two switches and two 'circuits'.

I was considering whether it would be possible to wire the security light to permanent live feed coming in using four core flex and use the fourth core to connect the switch live to the switched output from the PIR therefore bypassing the function of the PIR. Then when the switch is turned off again the security light PIR still functions as it is being fed from the permanent supply, ... Does that make sense or am i barking up the wrong tree completely?

Do you mean 'permanently connecting the permanent live' to the PIR, without any switch in the circuit? If so, and if I understand you correctly, that would work, but the problem is that it really is highly desirable that there should be some switch, somewhere, for the permanent live feed to the PIR.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Would it not be possible to wire it in the manner below? With the switch live from wired into the PIR load (output)?

Please see what I've just written. What you now show is what I thought you meant but, as I said, it's really not a good idea to have no way of isolating the PIR from the supply. Apart from anything else, if the PIR, say, filled up with water, it could result in an RCD operating and taking out a significant proportion of the power to your house, without your having any way of 'disconnecting' the PIR.

Kind Regards, John

 

[murphyabu]

That's exactly what i am suggesting John,

I understand a switch is highly desirable however as the wiring is installed at the moment, in order to maintain the light the MCB has to be turned off owing to a permanent live being present at the back of the leftmost light fitting.

Therefore if i was to wire it in the manner i have suggested (PIR to permanent live) I will still be turning the MCB off when undertaking any maintenance on the fittings,

The switch would then give the option of turning three lights on (2 x spots and floodlight). Or turning it off will mean the (2 x Spotlights are off and the floodlight functions off the PIR)

 

[JohnW2]

That's exactly what i am suggesting John, .... I understand a switch is highly desirable however as the wiring is installed at the moment, in order to maintain the light the MCB has to be turned off owing to a permanent live being present at the back of the leftmost light fitting. ... Therefore if i was to wire it in the manner i have suggested (PIR to permanent live) I will still be turning the MCB off when undertaking any maintenance on the fittings,

It's not just a question of maintenance. If, as I suggested, the PIR were to 'fill up with water', that could result in a neutral-earth fault which could trip an RCD (assuming there is one, which there probably should be), taking out much of your houses electricity, and 'turning off the MCB' (which does not disconnect the neutral) would not solve that problem.

One solution would be to install a (double pole) switch in the electricity feed to the whole lot of what you have drawn.

Kind Regards, John

 

[murphyabu]

Okay i understand, that would be a little tricky as it would involve chasing walls for new wiring,

I don't think that would go down well with the other half....

 

[JohnW2]

Okay i understand, that would be a little tricky as it would involve chasing walls for new wiring, .... I don't think that would go down well with the other half....

You said that the present setup is that there are two switched FCUs, each controlling one pair of spotlights. Couldn't you retain one for the spotlights and use the other one for the PIR, without having to do any significant digging around in your other half's walls?

Kind Regards, John