Skills

[nashka]

Have the skills of the electrician been "diluted" over the last few years

 

[sparkwright]

Have the skills of the electrician been "diluted" over the last few years

How do you mean?

Are you talking about young, new electricians
or
different materials/wiring methods

??

 

[ericmark]

The electrician is often expected to have more skills than can be gained over a 4 year apprenticeship and the way around the problem is to specialise.

However maintenance, and installation may need different skills in the every day work but that does not mean a maintenance guy does not have to keep abreast of the regulations.

On the other hand installation guys often do not need to know how to read a ladder diagram or test a sensor.

When I started pyro, steel conduit, tray work and making the installation look good including not marking glands was important but PLC control was unknown. Using resistor, auto transformer and star delta starters was common. But soft starts and inverter control was unknown.

So yes the modern newly of of time electrician may not know all the older guys did but he will also know a lot more as well.

Although we did the calculations in college in the field we forgot them.

 

[bernardgreen]

My experience is that electricians in the 1950's and 60's were able to think and work out what was necessary and what was safe. They had do some thinking as in those days there were not stacks of guidelines and regulations to tell them what to do.

Having had to think about how to design an installation these electricians also had a much deeper knowledge of electrical theory than the modern "electrician" has. Too many modern competent "electricians" are competent at following the rules without fully understanding the reasoning behind the rules. This deeper knowledge enabled the old fashioned electricians to be good at fault finding and coping with the abnormal faults that can stump some "electricians" today.

 

[RF Lighting]

There are still lots of very good electricians around, but there's also lots of people calling them selves electricians who don't have a clue what they're doing.

 

[JohnW2]

There are still lots of very good electricians around, but there's also lots of people calling them selves electricians who don't have a clue what they're doing.

That does, indeed, appear to be the situation. Perhaps the most worrying thing is that a fair few of the latter group aren't simply 'self-proclaimed electricians' but have, in fact, been through some sort of 'training' as an electrician (even if only for a few days!) which probably leads at least some of them to believe that they really are 'trained electricians'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A notion they are soon disabused of when they (inevitably) find they can't do something which they need to do, and they come here/Screwloose/IET/electricianforum/etc looking for help.

As I've observed before, I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

 

[JohnW2]

As I've observed before, I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

Quite so. As I said, although there are undoubtedly some who are just disreputable 'self-proclaimed electricians', who have never made any attempt to learn anything, I'm sure there are some who genuinely believe they have been 'trained', despite the pitiful nature of whatever 'course' they have undertaken - and,like you, I feel sorry for them. ... and I doubt that electrical 'training' is the only offender.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

My father was disgusted at the idea of my apprenticeship only being 4 years. He did a 5 year apprenticeship followed by a 2 years journey man with 6 months in 4 different firms.

However the pre-work training and block release does mean today people start the job with a better back-ground knowledge and once they start have far more intense training than my dad or I got.

If when taking up a trade kids could leave school at 14 then they could complete their training before they reached the point where they are married and trying to buy a house. But if they don't leave school until they are 18 then to be on full wages by time they are 21 then the trainer must rely on the education already received.

What I am saying is in my day much of the maths was taught after leaving school today students are expected to already know that maths. There is as a result less for the student to learn.

This of course all fails if the student is mature he has not got the background the modern day apprentice is expected to have. Of course there are life skills which can help but being frank when I returned to education it was the maths I found hard.

When I was a lad there were 12 pennies in a shilling and 20 shilling in a pound and 16 ounces in a pound so working with odd bases to me was easy. But to new student who had only worked to base 10 this was a problem. However to me logs was using a set of tables to assist with multiplication. Today it's all to do with manipulating powers.

The problem is the mature student needs a different amount of time to absorb than the school leaver it may be higher or lower but to try training both groups together simply does not work.

Add to this allied trades then it becomes even more complex. Many years ago I went on a government course to become a plant mechanic. After 4 weeks of the 12 weeks course I was called into the office. It seems my lecturer had complained I knew too much. It transpired the qualifications I had were good enough for me to teach the course so clearly I should not have been a student.

There was a minimum time they could train a student for I seem to remember it being 6 weeks. This was 1980. I had to stay on the course for the 6 weeks or it would effect my benefits. I left did a job for two weeks then went to Falklands for 5 years.

I have switched between auto electrician, mechanic, plant electrician, installation electrician and maintenance electrician even electrical engineer many times. With 64 turns to the coil I have now done most electrical jobs. To return now to auto electrics I would be lost. But I am sure within a couple of months I would be back to speed.

However I am unusual most go to one apex of electrics and stay with it. So take a new set of houses lets say 5 models with 1000 houses to be built how long do you think it would take you to train some one to do the wiring? Could you do it in a week? Likely yes they have a plan to follow and all calculations have been already done. Once he has finished those 1000 houses 3 years latter what will he have learnt which he did not learn in first 3 weeks? I would say very little.

OK college may teach him more but on the job training he would have learnt all he needed in first 3 weeks. This was what happened with an apprenticeship. So next site may be a few changes but less than a week to learn. So 4 year apprenticeship could be done in 4 weeks.

Clearly there were good and bad apprenticeships and employers knew this. So served your apprenticeship with coal board everyone knew you would be a good tradesman. Butlers the builder was a completely different story.

It is no different today. Employers know who trains well and who does not. We see it on here many times it would seem British Gas has failed to train as they should and whole work force has a bad name where likely it is just a few who have brought the company down.

We see advice don't touch rated trades men with a barge pole good electricians don't need to join those organisations. Clearly there will be some good ones but we one need one rotten apple in the barrel.

Today it would seem employers are more interested in a CSCS card than how well you can do the job.

 

[SimonH2]

Today it would seem employers are more interested in a CSCS card than how well you can do the job.

That's a natural result of a culture where if something goes wrong it's not a case of "how do we fix it" but "who can we sue" So if an employer has <something> he can point to and say the tradesman he's taken in off the street was "competent" then that's what he'll stick with. It may or may not help the employer in terms of whether the tradesman can do the job, but it gives him something to hold up in court (if it gets that far) by way of defence.

That's the modern world - priorities are "CYA first", "can do the job" second.

It's (partly) the same reason that with absolutely no official backing, one organisation has effectively got a stranglehold on "licensing" people to use aerial access machines (scissor lifts, cherry pickers, etc). Apart from showing a prospective employer that the person is competent to use the machine, it also means that if anything does happen then the employer has something to hold up in defence should anything go wrong.
On that, if you do use such machines, I have it that some rental companies are talking about putting card readers on machines - so they can't be used without the right qualifications.

 

[scousespark]

Is this a question about the trade in general, or looking specifically at domestic installers?

John and BAS have both referred to the DI sector and there is an issue here. Prior to Part P (Jn 2005) there was no requirement for anybody working in the domestic sector to have any qualifications or training. however, instead of requiring recognisable quals/trianing, the schemes opted for cut-down versions (including the oft-quoted 3/5 day courses). This is often stated to be an indicator that the trade is full of charlatans who are taking money off unsuspoecting customers. IME, the real problem is the same as very trade, in that there are rogues who have not training, but don't care enough to let it bother them.

If the question relates to the trade as a whole, this is probaly the wrong forum. Those of us working in the trade can all relate tales of good and bad workmanship. It doesn't give us a great insight into the state of electrical installation in the UK, or the abilities of practising electricians.

 

[JohnW2]

Is this a question about the trade in general, or looking specifically at domestic installers? ... John and BAS have both referred to the DI sector and there is an issue here.

Good to see you. I can't speak for BAS (although I suspect his answer would probably be the same) but, given that this is a DIY forum, my comments specifically related to electricians undertaking domestic work - not necessarily just "Domestic Installers"

Prior to Part P (Jn 2005) there was no requirement for anybody working in the domestic sector to have any qualifications or training.

That surely wasn't changed by Part P? It is still possible for someone (like me) with no relevant qualifications or formal training to undertake any any domestic electrical work, even for financial gain, provided only that any notifiable work is notified and that the work is undertaken 'safely' (i.e. in compliance with the one sentence which is Part P).

... This is often stated to be an indicator that the trade is full of charlatans who are taking money off unsuspoecting customers. IME, the real problem is the same as very trade, in that there are rogues who have not training, but don't care enough to let it bother them.

I'm sure that the trade is not 'full of charlatans' - although, as you say, every trade and profession will inevitably have its share. However, as BAS and I have said, a specific worry is that it seems that a good few of the inadequately competent 'electricians' out there are not charlatans or rogues at all, but have been misled into believing that the inadequate 'training' they have paid for has rendered them 'qualified' (and 'competent') electricians.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I have worked on many sites where one of the electricians has in the past only worked on houses.

They have done a full apprenticeship and have done the full set of college based qualifications but were like a fish out of water when they came to work on industrial installation.

I am sure the reverse is also true and there are many cases of industrial electricians who working in the domestic market have made some really silly errors.

Much depends on the firm one is working for. I was shocked to be told to fit a panel where it clearly would cause a problem. Being told it's on the plan and if you fit it and we are told to remove and re-fit we get extra money to do the work. This was a international firm.

But as installation electricians it's all down to following plans one does not need to think just do as one it told one is not worried about BS7671 that's down to the designers often you don't even test that's done by another set of workers.

Maintenance does need some BS7671 knowledge but in the main it is replace like for like and the skill is finding the fault not designing or following regulations.

The whole idea of the journeyman did make sense as all too often electricians are trained how to apply their trade in a bubble and once that bubble bursts they are lost.

We tend to blame the poor electrician on the 5 day course but although it means a very steep learning curve people have developed into good electricians from that route. Also people who have served a full 5 years and been electricians for the last 30 years can still be useless.

Today we take written exams but this was not always the case and I could have failed all my college exams but I would have still received my indentures after 4 years and the foremen would have selected jobs to my ability likely those no one else wanted to do.

I have been on jobs where one guy replaced all the lighting tower bulbs he was a rotten electrician but no one else wanted to climb the lighting towers so we were happy to have him.

I would hate to see what a house he re-wired would look like.

The problem with domestic the house holder has no idea who they are employing and so are open to be caught out by the guy who although useless has become a member of some scheme who are prepared to tell the house holder he's a good guy.

The Part P interview was an eye opener when the scheme operators were asked how many electricians they had kicked out and if they informed each other of people who were found to be below standard. There answers made it very plain all they wanted was to make money by creaming off all their members.

 

[scousespark]

Eric
Your post is about experience, not skills. If you specialise in one area, it will be difficult to switch to another. I work mainly commercial, with some domestic. I would not apply for a maintenance job in a factory, as I don't have the relevant experience. However, the basic skill set applies wherever you work.

I think this question is aimed at the Domestic Installer, who some believe to be offering their services under false pretences. becasuse they are either conmen or deluded into thinking their training is of any value (regardless of knowing their backgound or what the course involved). As you said, there are plenty of people who have been through the EAL course who are good at the job. The training is not as broad as C&G training, but no less thorough.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

OK college may teach him more but on the job training he would have learnt all he needed in first 3 weeks. This was what happened with an apprenticeship. So next site may be a few changes but less than a week to learn. So 4 year apprenticeship could be done in 4 weeks.

That, surely, is very trade-dependent?

There are many fields where it takes a lot more than 4 weeks practice to become fully skilled at carrying out certain tasks. Welding, machining, cabinet making all spring to mind. Plastering?

How about conduit and pyro work?