Sleeving 3C+E

[SimonH2]

Where all three cores are being used as switched lines (multiple lighting circuits), do the black and grey cores have to be sleeved brown - or can they be left black (which is line) and (grey which is also line) ?

And if your opinion is that they can be left unsleeved, would you change your opinion if it is part of an installation with mixed colour schemes so there are black = neutral cores in the same JB ?

 

[Iggifer]

sleeve them in a single phase installation, and tbf I would do in a 3P+N too, there's no harm in doing it. It costs about 3p and takes 10 seconds

 

[Lectrician]

To comply, you have to sleeve them for single phase, so yes, on a switch drop or strapper, you need to sleeve your grey and black.

For TP circuits, you can omit it (which is a tad odd TBH).

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Sleeve all live cores brown.

 

[SimonH2]

As I thought. Left a job half finished as my brown sleeving has disappeared - as in not where I expected to find it. I reckon my mate has been on one of his cleaning up sprees, though he's adamant he hasn't thrown it out. He's a "don't need it now, bin it" person, Mum called our house Magpies Nest for a reason

Here's a counterpoint to discuss ...
In a situation where any half awake skilled person with a couple of brain cells turned on would realise they are all "live", and leaving aside that the regs require it - does the "increase in safety" from sleeving them brown outweigh the "increase in risk" of having a terminal box full of wires all the same colour making it much harder to follow any individual wire without disturbing the wiring ?
<ducks for cover, and looks for popcorn>

 

[Iggifer]

having a JB full of overlseeved browns is no different having a JB/rose/switch full of twin brown + E. In fact, as you don't oversleeve the entire conductor at least you can still see the grey / black

 

[AndyPRK]

Use a small amount of sleaving then.

 

[THRIPSTER]

Simon, I'm with you. Same as the label stating that there is wiring to two different colours - because they are morons they assume everybody else is too.

Lets see which moron, in particular, responds.

Regards

 

[SimonH2]

having a JB full of overlseeved browns is no different having a JB/rose/switch full of twin brown + E.

Except here the discussion is between levaing cores black/grey vs making them brown. If they are brown to start with then yes, that's something you just have to work with.

In fact, as you don't oversleeve the entire conductor at least you can still see the grey / black

Use a small amount of sleaving then.

That answers another question. I've seen it done where the whole of the core is sleeved leaving little if any of the original colour showing, and also where there's just a token ring of colour applied.

Same as the label stating that there is wiring to two different colours - because they are morons they assume everybody else is too.

Yes, that's an interesting one. If there anyone who doesn't assume there are mixed colours in an installation that's not either quite new or never been altered ? Not too bad in a domestic/single phase environment - but in a 3 phase environment I could see a situation where you remove the front from a <something> and find it fed with black and blue singles (which could be L&N or N&L).

Lets see which moron, in particular, responds.

I think calling them morons is a bit strong - well something of an insult really.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Simon, I'm with you. Same as the label stating that there is wiring to two different colours - because they are morons they assume everybody else is too.

With Simon on what exactly, has he expressed a personal opinion on something that you agree with, if so what? Simon did say he had left the job half finished, as the lack of brown sleeving. So that would suggest Simon understands that the cores should be sleeved and identified accordingly.

Lets see which moron, in particular, responds.

Lets see if I can satisfy that requirement for you!

The reason for colour or number coding, is not just because there are those of a lesser brain capacity, but to identify the conductor, It's not moronic but simple practical, logical, common sense. I would much prefer to go to a job where the cores where identified rather than where they are not, I don't consider myself a moron for thinking that (others may!)
But I would suggest that those of us who care not ID cores and display warning notices, are more moronic than I and unfortunately we have to accept that these morons are forever present within our life's and have to accommodate them accordingly.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Just take a quick look at the recent topics from weekend DIYers.
A lot of those are from folkwho have tried to connect up an additional light to an existing switch thinking that the black /blue wire in the switch is a neutral.
Or have disconnected a ceiling rose and has not understood that one of the black is a switched live, and not a neutral.

That's why brown sleeving is necessary...

 

[THRIPSTER]

Yes, and of course you guys are right - and I'm the first to admit that I am a moron. But there is another moron out there, who the mail was addressed to - who hasn't bitten - perhaps he has learnt his lesson at last.


Regards

 

[JohnW2]

Just take a quick look at the recent topics from weekend DIYers. A lot of those are from folkwho have tried to connect up an additional light to an existing switch thinking that the black /blue wire in the switch is a neutral. Or have disconnected a ceiling rose and has not understood that one of the black is a switched live, and not a neutral. That's why brown sleeving is necessary...

There is a bit of a difference - particularly, as Simon implied in his OP, in an installation wired entirely in harmonised colours. In that situation, as he said, unsleeved grey and black conductors correctly identify line/phase conductors, and no-one should really have any reason to think that anything other than a blue was a neutral.

Having said that (and not the least because I don't have any dealings with any all-harmonised-colours installations), I would personally always utilise (small bits of) brown oversleeving, 'just to be sure'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

... But I would suggest that those of us who care not ID cores and display warning notices, are more moronic than I ...

The problem with the two-colours 'warning notice' is, IMO, that those who might possibly benefit from the warning will almost certainly not have a clue as to what is meant by "...wiring colours to two versions of BS7671". If we are to have such warning lables, they should (again, IMO) at least be worded so as to be understandable by those who most need to be 'warned'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Having said that (and not the least because I don't have any dealings with any all-harmonised-colours installations), I would personally always utilise (small bits of) brown oversleeving, 'just to be sure'.

Not red & black?

The problem with the two-colours 'warning notice' is, IMO, that those who might possibly benefit from the warning will almost certainly not have a clue as to what is meant by "...wiring colours to two versions of BS7671". If we are to have such warning lables, they should (again, IMO) at least be worded so as to be understandable by those who most need to be 'warned'!

Might it not be be difficult to come up with wording which would impart the message in a way which would be understood by somebody whose grasp of electrics was so flaky that they thought that L & N could be the only conductors going to a switch?