The stagnant water can also discolour ruining furnishing when activated that may have been OK just drying out.
Sprinkler systems
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That is a scenario that never or hardly ever occurs in practice, and in any case heat or smoke detectors will have operated to give warning in good time. It's certainly not a justification for a complete install in hundreds of thousands of homes. As with all H&S measures, cost/benefit and likelihood/risk factors need taken into account.
I would say sprinklers are essential in high rise. High-rise I found out, is between 7 and 10 floors depending on the height of the ceilings. All to do with the length of the fire brigade's ladders. I would redefine that as to how far down it is to drop out of a window. Dropping from the 4th floor will give serious injury or death. Maybe 4 floors minimum is a high rise.
I believe that if constructing an attic conversion, if the required exits cannot be conformed to, a sprinkler in the attic will get it through the regs in some cases. Simple to do having the one or two attic sprinkler heads off the mains.
I believe that if constructing an attic conversion, if the required exits cannot be conformed to, a sprinkler in the attic will get it through the regs in some cases. Simple to do having the one or two attic sprinkler heads off the mains.
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To quote "nobody has ever died in a building fitted with sprinklers". This is statistically flawed:
- What other fire safety measures were installed? (cause/effect)
- What is the ratio of buildings with vs those without? (sample size)
- Do new builds with new electrics etc. have less fire risk? (overall risk)
- how many buildings that have had fires have had sprinlers retrofitted (regression to the norm)
But glaringly obvious one is this: time exposed to danger. If a building is exposed to equal risk and there are 40,000 (300 fatal) dwelling fires a year out 28M dwellings then each building has a potential risk of fire of 0.001, therefore a building that is 150 years old has an exposure rate 10 X that of a building under 10 years old.
- What other fire safety measures were installed? (cause/effect)
- What is the ratio of buildings with vs those without? (sample size)
- Do new builds with new electrics etc. have less fire risk? (overall risk)
- how many buildings that have had fires have had sprinlers retrofitted (regression to the norm)
But glaringly obvious one is this: time exposed to danger. If a building is exposed to equal risk and there are 40,000 (300 fatal) dwelling fires a year out 28M dwellings then each building has a potential risk of fire of 0.001, therefore a building that is 150 years old has an exposure rate 10 X that of a building under 10 years old.
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A building with a floor above 18m (6 storey) is high rise. Thats when many of the other fire safety requirements kick in.
Sprinklers are not essential in high rise, rather effective management to prevent fires starting, passive measures to contain and prevent fire spreading, means of warning, and a policy of either stay put or evacutaion needs to be devised - along with protected escape routes.
In short, its not about any one thing, one measure (or material) in isolation, but about an effective system working as a whole. Lots of these are missing from the London council blocks.
As with the current tests of other block's panels due to the London fire, you will find that all of them will fail. That sounds dramatic, but in context they are designed to work as a system with the rest of the envelope - and if tested as part of that system, the system would most probablly pass.
BTW, "dropping out of a window" is all very Hollywood, but not how things are planned in real life. Prevention, warning, containment and safe escape routes are the considerations.
I checked, 7 to 10 floors depending on ceiling height is high-rise, not 18 floors. Sprinklers are not mandatory now, the media, etc, is saying they will be in high-rise and have to be retrofitted. Passive and active fire prevention measures are being implemented. `In short, its not about any one thing, one measure (or material) in isolation, but about an effective system working as a whole.` That is the aim it seems. Poorly designed and fitted cladding is a massive fire risk as Melbourne and London have shown us.
In Wales all new homes, even if a bungalow I believe, needs sprinklers. The rest of the UK looks like it will follow. But what will constitute a high-rise for retrofitting sprinklers? Something tells me it will be around 3 to 4 floors. The danger of exiting via high windows must come into consideration.
In Wales all new homes, even if a bungalow I believe, needs sprinklers. The rest of the UK looks like it will follow. But what will constitute a high-rise for retrofitting sprinklers? Something tells me it will be around 3 to 4 floors. The danger of exiting via high windows must come into consideration.
From http://gov.wales/docs/desh/publications/151218householders-guide-to-fire-sprinklers-en.pdf
7.The main areas in a home where fire sprinklers will be fitted are:
• Living rooms, dining rooms, and lounge
• Home offices
• Bedrooms
• Kitchens
• Utility rooms
• Larger bathrooms *
• Larger cupboards and pantries **
• Halls, stairs and landings (though not necessarily
communal halls and stairs in blocks of flats)
* Bathrooms over 5 square metres
** Cupboards and pantries over 2 square metres
Something that is missing in from tower blocks in Camden alone is 1,000 fire doors
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ower-blocks-evacuated-in-camden-a3573551.html
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/879398250268286976
AFAIUI, the sort of sprinkler system for tower blocks would need maintenance. If the 'maintenance' system is so poor it fails to install 1,000 fire doors (or fails to notice they have gone missing) then I am sceptical that it would look after a sprinkler system properly.
Yes it'll be a shame if media simplification and sensationalism gets the better of clear rational thought. You should mandate the outcome not the method. The law is always too slow to keep up with the pace and stifles innovation if you have rules along the lines of 'all cars must have catalitic converters'
I hope you don't check sprinkler systems for a living. 18m not floors
BTW, where did you check?
In many high-rises the cold water main is pumped. The water enters a holding tank from the street. The tank also act as a buffer reducing spikes on the mains system. If the cold water mains pipes, and pumps, are sized large enough to cope also with sprinklers, the sprinklers and cold water mains pipes can be combined. This gives a maintenance free sprinkler system. Not sure if this can be currently done in the regs.
It appears all rooms need a sprinkler head in Wales.
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No idea about the regs.
At some stage work will be done on the water system and as part of that the outlets from the tank will be turned off. If the maintenance can skip 1,000 fire doors I think they could skip turning the feed for the sprinkler system back on. Of course a way round that can be devised, but any system that man can devise can also be cocked-up by man.
I think you can have a reasonably reliable system for a house, probably feed off of the rising main, that can be sold as maintenance-free. But by that I expect the vendors mean that nothing needs to be looked at for 5 or 10 years, maybe even 20 years. But sooner or later something will happen to those pipes, but, unlike your ordinary water pipes, you won't notice.
What I don't believe is that you can devise a system that you install into a block of 100+ of flats and totally leave it alone for 50+ years [1] and be confident that it works as well in every single room at the end as on day one.
Hence, I agree with previous posters, that what is needed is an integrated approach (prevention, warning, containment and escape) that is appropriate to each place and is reviewed & updated when significant changes are made.
1. Grenfell Tower was 43 years old and just been refurbished, so I think that it should have had another 7 years of life.
Oops. About right then.
What Is a High-Rise Building?
A building is an enclosed structure that has walls, floors, a roof, and usually windows. “ A ‘ tall building ’is a multi-story structure in which most occupants depend on elevators [lifts] to reach their destinations. The most prominent tall buildings are called ‘ high-rise buildings ’in most countries and ‘ tower blocks ’in Britain and some European countries. The terms do not have internationally agreed definitions. ” However, a high-rise building can be defined as follows:
- “Any structure where the height can have a serious impact on evacuation ” ( The International Conference on Fire Safety in High-Rise Buildings ) .
- “For most purposes, the cut-off point for high-rise buildings is around seven stories. Sometimes, seven stories or higher define a high-rise, and sometimes the definition is more than seven stories. Sometimes, the definition is stated in terms of linear height (feet or meters) rather than stories.”
- “ Generally, a high-rise structure is considered to be one that extends higher than the maximum reach of available fire-fighting equipment. In absolute numbers, this has been set variously between 75 feet (23 meters) and 100 feet (30 meters), ” or about seven to ten stories (depending on the slab-to-slab distance between floors).
The exact height above which a particular building is deemed a high-rise is specified by fire and building codes for the country, region, state, or city where the building is located. When the building exceeds the specified height, then fire, an ever-present danger in such facilities, must be fought by fire personnel from inside the building rather than from outside using fire hoses and ladders. For practicality and convenience such a multi-level or multi-story structure uses elevators as a vertical transportation system and, in addition, some utilize escalators to move people between lower floors.
https://booksite.elsevier.com/samplechapters/9781856175555/02~Chapter_1.pdf
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