Standard expected

Now why are you defending the indefensible John. I've seen the quality of your work on here, and I don't think you'd fit 100mm insulation when the joist are only 90mm deep. What would it cost on a standard loft of say 16sqm, about £20 worth of wood, and half an hour to screw and cut it as you go. He would have wasted pretty much as long as that making sure he was working backwards as he couldn't stand on the joists.
 
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That was another thing. He got the cheap stuff. I told him to put in what was specified. He wasn't happy. I did offer him to give me 2k and I would accept the other stuff as I felt bad about him losing the money on the other stuff and having to wait for the Kooltherm but I think he thought I was just trying to get money off him. He didn't see there was any difference between the products.

When did the builder quote for the job?

Most board insulation has gone up by almost 50% in the last year

What cheap stuff did he get?
 
Specify everything, imply nothing.

You might imply its a crap day because it's raining. I'd imply the ducks love it.
 
Now why are you defending the indefensible John. I've seen the quality of your work on here,
Please don't get personal about it, as I say I can see what you're saying and we will have to agree to disagree. What I'm defending is perfectly defensible regardless of our various opinions.
The quality of my work is not always 100% but I try my best and help where I can based on what I experienced.
 
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Sorry John, I didn't mean it to sound personal. I was just surprised and perplexed at your attitude that's all. Hell, none of us are 100%, but you can normally spot those that cut corners and can't be bothered, and I've never noticed that from you.

So apologies, and we'll leave it at that.
 
Theres not enough information to know the answer.

Was 90mm kooltherm specified and 100mm pir fitted, ending up higher than the joists?

If builder quoted for job a while back he would be out of pocket on the material cost.
 
Hi Notch, that was what was specified - 90 mm joists and 100 mm rafters. I guess this should have been picked up and clarified at the design stage but doesn't every jobs have these grey areas? And where there are grey areas, there should be a standard of fitness for purpose. A loft that you cant place things on, or that by placing things on damages the insulation seems to me to be not fit for purpose. A side from fitness for purpose, what is the standard of work to be done to. There are some references to complying to Building Regs in the contract (JCT MWD 2011) but where does the manufacturer recommendations fit into it? Also, some of the stuff in the product documentation is not recommendations, for example where they use language like 'must'. They dont usually give reasons, or say what will happen if not followed, so I am wondering if a contractopr can be help to whats said in there, especially when he cannot explain why his approach would be OK to use.

The quote was done in September. I think one of the causes of the supply shortage was a fire in Germany (making PIR but affects all supply) in Oct 16. I don't know how much the prices have risen since September, probably still on their way up?

Were talking about the 90mm Koolthem here. The contractor did buy cheaper stuff, a mixture of Iko Ecotherm, Enertherm and Celotext I think. Those products are all of a similar quality, same r values (.022) and all lower and cheaper than Kooltherm. For the Kooltherm K117 100 mm, the equivalent products are about 40 a sheet, Kooltherm would be 70. I think a lot of the other products are the same stuff, and some merchants say they may substitute depending on availability, but Kingspan is in a different bracket.
 
Was 90mm kooltherm specified and 100mm pir fitted, ending up higher than the joists?
that was what was specified - 90 mm
That changes everything!! Should have said in the first place.
I was under the impression the specification didn't say 90mm was the thickness to use,I thought it said 100mm or was silent on thickness and have a performance specification instead. So if the specification says 90mm because the joists are 90mm you have every right to expect the builder to build up the joists if he prefers to use 100mm insulation for his own reasons.
So scratch my previous repies, although a good spec would hopefully have clarified the reason and a good builder would have asked before using an alternative.
 
Were talking about the 90mm Koolthem here. The contractor did buy cheaper stuff, a mixture of Iko Ecotherm, Enertherm and Celotext I think. Those products are all of a similar quality, same r values (.022) and all lower and cheaper than Kooltherm. For the Kooltherm K117 100 mm, the equivalent products are about 40 a sheet, Kooltherm would be 70. I think a lot of the other products are the same stuff, and some merchants say they may substitute depending on availability, but Kingspan is in a different bracket

I wonder why 90mm kooltherm was specified as its so much more expensive. Was it to meet the u value yet be less than joist thickness? -possibly an architect specifying something for the sake of it

  • PIR Boards at a thickness of 100mm would require an equivalent of 90mm of Phenolic Board to achieve the same R-Value
  • An approximate price comparison of 50m² of 100mm PIR = £513.36, while 90mm Phenolic = £895.98
I dont see 100mm pir as a substandard option, just less expensive. I bet the builder only priced for celetex / ecotherm type PIR anyway.


It mustve been a big area if the difference was worth £2k? About 250 sq metres?

Maybe the builder got the hump when you asked for £2k credit and then refused to fit packers or charging as an extra?

Yes it would make sense to just fit some 50 x 25 battens -tile battens and pinned in place with a paslode.

Is the architect project managing?
 
Probably because modern 4x2 is less than 100mm.

But why use any type of board in a floor anyway? Also I wouldn't say a hatch automatically means it's going to be used, just means you could access it if you need to.
 
I still can't make head nor tail of the issue. Sounds like a customer from pernickety hell.
 
Issue is customer intended to board the loft for storage but the insulation specified is taller than the joists. The contractor didn't plan to pack up the joists to allow for boarding but the customer expected that to be included.
 

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