The EU Referendum

[Freddie]

Well lets hope he comes back without the insults and name calling and start to listen to what people say

 

[Richardp]

"Does he take tea?" come on guys wait for the guy to come back before you start slagging him off behind his back.

 

[Big_Spark]

Well lets hope he comes back without the insults and name calling and start to listen to what people say

That works both ways...

D/J..thanks for the other comments..I would certainly not say I am a fanatic about anything..passionate on a few subjects..but actually the EU is NOT one of them

I do honestly believe that the future for Europe is as a United Entity..what form that entity takes is open to debate. Regarding the EU..I would dismantle the whole structure that currently exists and replace it with something that works..because despite the fact that many of us disagree here, I hope that none of us actually disagree about how useless the current setup is.

This is not me going back on what I have said or believe, simply addressing an issue that i think several of you may be confused about regarding my thoughts on the EU.

I am straight talking, that is not always appreciated by others, but unless people can provide me with evidence, I shall not change the way I think on this or any subject. You Guys do not agree with me on Europe..thats fine..I don't agree with you for the most part...I think we would all be better off leaving it at that as we are simply not going to resolve this and this will simply continue..

Edit

Where have I supposedly gone??

 

[Richardp]

to the pub
to put the kettle on
to the loo
for a walk along the beach
anon

 

[Big_Spark]

It's called Life Richard..had to collect someone from the Airport and then do a few jobs I have been neglecting...I've been having a rather lazy weekend..

 

[Freddie]

I got the impression that you may have had problems, good to see all is ok.

Engineer i havent actually thrown any insults at you but anyway as you say and what we agree on, is what we have is crap and that is why no one seems to want to go any further with it on our part untill it ever gets sorted

 

[Big_Spark]

The only problems I have are lack of lottery numbers and total mental instability

Regarding the Tax thing we was on about earlier...I thought you Guys might like to read what the EU says itself

Click Me

 

[Damocles]

Dear D,J&F. I would be more impressed by your arguments about the EU if you had produced rather more evidence yourselves. You seem very quick to demand it, but a little slow to produce support for your own contentions.

My own impression is that the new EU constitution sounds a lot more impressive than it is. The general consensus seems to be that it is rather more to do with tidying up the existing string of treaties and rather less about creating a new state.

We already have derogations about various uk taxes, including VAT. VAT is the main tax used to finance the EU and we have various agreements not to apply it to certain things. This will remain the same. Every country in th EU has derrogations about something or other where they did not want to follow the rules. This is how the EU gets round disagreements.

You consider the new constitution to imply that suddenly the united kingdom will cease to exist. This is utter rubbish. Much better to compare it to the constitution of NATO or some such organisation. Did we have to give up our UN seat because we joined NATO?

It may be that we will be forced to give up our UN seat anyway. But this will be because we are an unimportant country and many others now want one.

 

[Freddie]

Damocles if you had bothered to read the posts you would have seen what was posted.

 

[Big_Spark]

Regarding the Constitution...have a read of this PDF on it..

CLICK ME

You may be interested in This One tooIt deals with the more fundermentals of the EU setup..

 

[david and julie]

Fair enough that FWL, can I also just leave a brief outline of the EU constitution for any readers who haven't seen it. I have highlighted my main (but by no means only)concerns but will not dwell on them. I would find other peoples comments on this interesting.

What is the EU constitution?

A proposed EU constitution was agreed by the EU's heads of government, including Tony Blair, on 18 June 2004. It represents an ambitious attempt both to consolidate the existing Treaties and greatly expand the formal competence of the Union. The constitution would give the EU a legal personality comparable under international law to its Member States and is a further step towards turning the EU into a centralized federal style state. Such an EU constitution would override national constitutions and Parliaments in any case of conflict. Yet, as EU research itself concedes, there is no EU community of people, no European "demos", to give it democratic legitimacy. *

In summary, the new powers the EU constitution would give the EU are:

The abolition of the remaining national veto in almost all areas, meaning that Britain could be out-voted by other countries on new EU laws on most issues;
The creation of a permanent EU President and an EU Foreign Minister;
The suspension of British (and, presumably French) membership as a Permanent Member of the UN Security Council, should the EU require it;
The establishment of an EU criminal justice system - Corpus Juris - on the continental model, without juries or habeas corpus;
The creation of new EU new powers to harmonize employment and social policies;
Inclusion of the EU's 'Charter of Fundamental Rights' into the treaty giving it full legal force. This would extend the competence of the EU Court of Justice into virtually every area of citizens' lives and make national Supreme Courts and the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg subject to the EU in politically highly sensitive areas;
The creation of an EU diplomatic service to harmonize the representation of EU member states in other countries;
The creation of a European Armaments Agency to harmonize military spending;
The creation of an open-ended "division of powers" meaning that, in many areas, EU member states will only be able to act if the EU has chosen not to. Britain will able to legislate in the fields of agriculture, fishing, justice, transport, energy, social policy and the environment only if the EU choses "not to exercise its competence."
Article I-10 gives the constitution and EU law "primacy over the law of member states."
Confirmation that all Britons (and nationals of other EU states) are citizens of the EU. (The duties of citizens are not defined.)
The Government has said that the EU constitution, along with all other EU laws, is to be part of UK law. They will be superior both to our own Constitution and our own law. For the first time this country is thus to have a written constitution and one whose interpretation will be solely in the hands of the European Court of Justice. Its judgments will therefore be superior to anything decided by the Crown in Parliament.

Despite the Prime Minister's claim that "we (Britain) have won every single thing we wanted to secure," * only 27 of the 275 proposed British amendments to the Constitution were accepted.

The EU constitution proposes to merge the intergovernmental and supranational areas of the Treaties under a single institutional structure. This would strengthen EU powers and competence over Member States in new and important ways. The proposals represent a further stage in the assault on the nation states of Europe and the national democracies that underpin them, by the powerful political, bureaucratic and economic elites that are pushing the EU integration project.

In regard to the underlined parts in order. Conflict doesn't mean war it means if you disagree with the EU they always come first.

The EU are to have the power to over-ride there own courts where they see fit in political matters, There is no appeal on this, their word goes.

In area's where we can still do something ourselves we must ask(and they must approve) the EU first.

Primacy means they come first regardless of what others think.

pri·ma·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm-s)
n. pl. pri·ma·cies
The state of being first or foremost.
Ecclesiastical. The office, rank, or province of primate.

Next 2 are much the same thing.

Although not mentioned here there are to be massive fines for any country who changes their mind and decides to leave once they have signed up. I have not found anything to post on this yet but will when I can.

 

[david and julie]

Dear D,J&F. I would be more impressed by your arguments about the EU if you had produced rather more evidence yourselves. You seem very quick to demand it, but a little slow to produce support for your own contentions.

My own impression is that the new EU constitution sounds a lot more impressive than it is. The general consensus seems to be that it is rather more to do with tidying up the existing string of treaties and rather less about creating a new state.

We already have derogations about various uk taxes, including VAT. VAT is the main tax used to finance the EU and we have various agreements not to apply it to certain things. This will remain the same. Every country in th EU has derrogations about something or other where they did not want to follow the rules. This is how the EU gets round disagreements.

You consider the new constitution to imply that suddenly the united kingdom will cease to exist. This is utter rubbish. Much better to compare it to the constitution of NATO or some such organisation. Did we have to give up our UN seat because we joined NATO?

It may be that we will be forced to give up our UN seat anyway. But this will be because we are an unimportant country and many others now want one.

But you haven't produced any at all have you? You also said this.

I have not read the proposals but I think it extraordinarily unlikely that anyone would agree to totally surrendering their right to tinker with taxes. But if they did.....how would this be bad.

With this in mind how do you know it is only a tidying exercise?

Derogations are already starting to go, red diesel is one of the first.

Red diesel: The latest
On the 31 December 2006, the derogation from EU legislation that allows recreational boaters to buy red diesel is due to end. If this happens, the price of marine diesel could treble overnight.

http://www.rya.org.uk/legal/

The blue line above is called a link I use these to back up what I say. Go back to the beginning and count how many of these you and FWL have posted, then come back and criticise me for no facts if you wish.

It may be that we will be forced to give up our UN seat anyway. But this will be because we are an unimportant country and many others now want one

Since when did one of the worlds top economies become unimportant then? Important enough for your Frog and Kraut mates to want , isn't it.

 

[Freddie]

It reminds me of some medevil kind of thing where the average Joe is busy minding his own business when a new landlord rides along and says----------oi mush you come here, from now on i'm yer new boss, and i want half yer wages and a go on yer daughters every friday night, dont like it tough titty.

 

[david and julie]

Damocles if you had bothered to read the posts you would have seen what was posted--------better still Knock airport 56 euro return on Easy Jet, ill pick you up and ill put you up and i will drive you around all week and show you my evidence and why the EU dosent work

Does that mean me to Freddie? bit partial to the old Guiness.

PS can we leave it till summer it pi**ed it down when I was working on that little airport in the north. What is it called? it was almost in the Atlantic! If I remember rightly one flight a day to Dublin and a brand new airport. Not sure who paid for it though.

 

[Freddie]