TN-C-S Distrubution Fault Symptoms?

[ban-all-sheds]

After i disconnected it, the Tesla fields dropped off very quickly within a foot of space, where as before they were very high for a meter and a half from the main cable conduit. The house felt noticeably different, calmer, relaxed. We felt more ready to sleep. My mother slept the whole night, which is unusual for her. I slept alot better than i had all week, and had multiple vivd dreams on the night after we made the change, also felt noticeable improvement in my health and i also slept longer, about 12 hours.

Ive not finished investigating this issue

You never will.

So please feel free to give yourself as much time as possible for your hobby by not using any more of it to post your arrant nonsense here.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Sleeping for twelve hours is surely a sign that something is wrong.

 

[bernardgreen]

What effect does the earth's magnetic field have on you ? In the UK it is about 50 microTeslars. Being steady state ( not reversing at 50 Hz ) may mean it does not affect human tissue. But as you move around the direction and strength of the earth's magnetic field affecting your head / body will fluctuate. These fluctuations being much greater than the fluctuations in the mains generated fields.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Bernard - you will not change by reasoning a position not arrived at by that method in the first place.

 

[PBC_1966]

I called the power distribution, they said a nice guy around within a couple of hours. He checked the readings with the clamp meter, and he agreeded it was unusual for current to be flowing through the earth bond with the mains off at 2.9A

As has been mentioned earlier, with TN-C-S and solid metallic links between properties by way of other services, that really isn't an exceptionally high current to see flowing if there's a fair load in other neighboring properties at a particular moment in time. John mentioned the point about 3-phase distribution, which is what's found feeding most homes in Britain, and how loads balanced across the phases cancel out the overall neutral current. If you applied identical loads to each phase, the neutral current back to the transformer would be nil, regardless of how high those loads were, so maximum overall neutral current is not necessarily highest when the total load is at its highest, it depends more upon the distribution of the load across the phases. But in the situation we're looking at here, it's more complicated than that anyway, since while in a perfectly balanced system with identical loads on each phase the neutral current at the transformer will be nil, there will still be various magnitudes of current flowing in different sections of the neutral in the distribution system depending upon the precise location and size of each home's load, and there will be parallel paths by way of the bonded services between numerous different points of the distribution system's neutral.

I wonder if the guy who looked at your installation is more used to seeing installations where there are no solidly connected services between buildings, in which cases you would expect any current through the bonding to be considerably lower.

He also said he wan't sure why there should be an earth bond connecting from the previous TN-S earth sheath and the TN-C-S earth & neutral PEN.

For the reasons which were outlined earlier - He really should know that.

He disconnected all the earths, and the current stopped, if he connected my main earth bond to the TN-C-S it started again

All of which is perfectly normal. As soon as you connect your bonded services to the incoming neutral, you've created the parallel path through which some portion of the distirbution system's neutral current can flow. The exact proportion depends upon the relative resistances.

He said my installation was within normal readings, but said if we wanted the equipment could upgraded for the PME.

I would hope that all the necessary work had already been done as you've already been connected as such.

He wasnt able to disconnect the earth bond between the TN-S and the TN-C-S because he wasn't sure if they were there for a unknown reason, and he naturally could not disconnect my main earth bond. He said the issue was interesting and unusual for him, and wasnt sure what it could be, but thought to be an issue with the earth wiring on our side than the distribution.

Not sure what others might think, but adding all these observations about him up, it sounds as though he's perhaps a little inexperienced or doesn't really understand the situation.

Later after gone i decided to investigate the main water earth bond. We have a plastic join on our water main for our SureStop water switch, so we have our main exponential water bond below that, and a wire linking between the part of copper water main and the rest of the water piping in the house.

I think you meant "equipotential."

Anyway, so it sounds as though you definitely have a bond to a metallic underground water service line. If they were all built at the same time, there's a fair chance that your neighboring houses have the same, and if those pipes are all solidly connected (electrically) to a metallic water main in the street, you have an interlinked web of parallel connections across various parts of the distribution neutral by way of every home which is arranged as TN-C-S. There is no way you will ever prevent some current from flowing through your bonding and pipework in this situation.

 

[stillp]

Some years ago the Facilities Manager at the company for which I worked read about "sick building syndrome" and decided it existed in our office; people would complain about headaches and nausea occurring at work. One of the possible causes that we investigated was the possibility of electromagnetic fields. We hired some test equipment and plotted the EMFs at both mains frequency and RF. There was no correlation between the areas of highest EMF and the desk locations of the people affected. We then hired a feng shui consultant, who told us some of our desks were blocking the flow of qi around the building or something like that. There was a higher correlation between the feng shui survey and the affected people than there was for the EMF survey.
Feeling a little mischievous, I left a map of the building lying around on which I had indicated areas of high EMF, and within a few weeks people in those areas were complaining of headaches. Thing was, I had indicated as high EMF areas which were actually low, and vice versa.
That seemed to me to show that the headaches and nausea were more closely related to the victims' suggestibility than to the presence of EMFs.

Incidentally, some time later a water leak led to the carpet tiles throughout the office being lifted and replaced. We had no more "sick building syndrome".

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That seemed to me to show that the headaches and nausea were more closely related to the victims' suggestibility than to the presence of EMFs.

Surely not.

I'm flabbergasted.

Spoiler

Not.

 

[ElectricsRanger]

I was very tired probably, i had been very tired in recent days also, but not been able to sleep in, waking up.

The three phase being unbalanced, and a difficult issue to keep balanced, is a point, but its not a point that can be fixed, to many unknown variables.

The TN-C-S works on the principle that the neutral will be earthed at the substation, so that the neutral has the lowest resistance attracting the return current. If the water pipes in a house have a lower return resistance, then the current up to a certain amount will flow through the house earth to the water main. The main problem is the magnetic fields around the wires are unbalanced naturally, because its one wire, with current flowing one way, its not a live feed with a neutral return... thats the point.

Electromagnetic fields are created by current flowing through the wire, we are not talking about the earth magnetic field. The principles of electromagnetic fields are discussed in electrical & science principles, but discussed more in relation of electromotive force. But the principle of electricity generation is many loops of copper wire passing through a magnetic field, causing current to flow through the wire. They actually teach us about fields flowing around the cables, its just very few sparkies keep a micro tesla meter in their kit to measure them.

The an unbalanced ring main can cause higher levels of micro tesla electromagetic fields... its a side effect of that issue, which at worse can cause the ring to be over loaded.

The man did disconnect the earth bonds to perform tests, and the values stopped, instant difference.

We are not talking about guess work, i have an £150 fluke true rms clamp meter that im measuring the current flow with. I have a magnetic field meter that detects only low level fields, it don't pick up the earth magnetic field as that a lower frequency. Im also looking in to buying a scopemeter when the time is right. I have scientific evidence that shows the two issues are connected, and its credible, but wont be credible for you guys, because thats the way you want it, non credible.

The issue has stopped, if the wires were disconnected and it had not stopped, then it could be claimed that its not related.

I wont get to the end... i have already reached near the end of solving the problem.
Oh i know why, you don't understand, you don't care, your here here to spam... Good luck to you then, ive solved it, and i have scientific readings to prove it.

More than a few of you are more interested in being skeptics and putting your energy in to writing negative responses, responses that argue over details than contributing points to solve it or help. The issue has been detected with equipment not voodoo science, the values have been recorded, the issue tracked, the issue stopped, values show a difference.

Why there is a biological response, thats another next question.

Thank you for your helpful inputs... when you gave them.

ElectricsRanger

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We are not talking about guess work, i have an £150 fluke true rms clamp meter that im measuring the current flow with. I have a magnetic field meter that detects only low level fields, it don't pick up the earth magnetic field as that a lower frequency. Im also looking in to buying a scopemeter when the time is right. I have scientific evidence that shows the two issues are connected,

Evidence that magnetic fields are related to current flow? I think that's already known.

Evidence that tiny oscillating magnetic fields can have genuine physiological effects? If you have that when tens of thousands of scientists have so far failed to find it then I'm sure the journals will be biting your hand off to publish your paper.

and its credible, but wont be credible for you guys, because thats the way you want it, non credible.

On the contrary, what we want is credibility. You have none.

The issue has stopped, if the wires were disconnected and it had not stopped, then it could be claimed that its not related.

Or it could be claimed that it's all a product of a defective mind.

Oh i know why, you don't understand, you don't care, your here here to spam... Good luck to you then, ive solved it, and i have scientific readings to prove it.

I, for one, look forward to seeing your findings published, your conclusions vindicated, and the 25,000 articles published over the last 30 years shown to be wrong.

More than a few of you are more interested in being skeptics

Scepticism is not only healthy, it is essential.

and putting your energy in to writing negative responses, responses that argue over details than contributing points to solve it or help.

I suggested you seek psychiatric help - that is the only way you will solve the problem of electricity making you feel unwell.


The issue has been detected with equipment not voodoo science, the values have been recorded, the issue tracked, the issue stopped, values show a difference.[/QUOTE]
Values of electric fields? No reason for them not to change if the current producing them changes.

Why there is a biological response, thats another next question.

And one so important that you must devote all your time to finding the answer.

So please go away and do that, and do not return here until you have it.

 

[stillp]

ElectricsRanger, if you believe it, that's fine with me. However please be aware that your investigations are not scientifically rigorous and cannot be considered to be 'proof' of any effect. If you were to conduct double-blind trials with a larger sample of people then more of us would be prepared to believe that your test results actually might be proving something, but not when your test sample is your own family, who are presumably aware of your belief that 'dirty electricity' is affecting your health.

 

[JohnW2]

ElectricsRanger, if you believe it, that's fine with me. However please be aware that your investigations are not scientifically rigorous and cannot be considered to be 'proof' of any effect. If you were to conduct double-blind trials with a larger sample of people then more of us would be prepared to believe that your test results actually might be proving something, but not when your test sample is your own family, who are presumably aware of your belief that 'dirty electricity' is affecting your health.

Exactly. As I wrote previously, 'open-mindedness' is very healthy, and nor is there need to have a (full or any) understanding of mechanism before one believes something. However, as I wrote before, to assert, or even suggest, that something is true in the absence of scientifically/statistically convincing empirical evidence that it is true (from trials, surveys, experiments or whatever) is not 'open-mindedness' - but, rather, foolishness.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

For what it is worth I did once believe that a fluctuating magnetic field could affect aminal / human tissue.

Then in 1971 when working in Gemany I got to hear of the results of some trials of various power transmission methods. The tests concentrated on the effects of magnetic fields on adjacent telecoms and signalling cables in long road tunnels but also considered whether there could be any effects on drivers. One system of lighting in long tunnels uses current transformers, one at each lamp, connected in series along the tunnel with high currents.

Blind and double blind tests on the effect of low frequency magnetic field fluctuations were carried out by a university and the conclusion was that the effects related more to what the subjects thought was happening and less to what was actually happening.

That seemed to me to show that the headaches and nausea were more closely related to the victims' suggestibility than to the presence of EMFs.

Workers in a tower office block in London became less healthy when they became aware of a communications tower being erected on the roof. They remained less healthy for several months after the tower was decommisioned and the services moved to a new and taller building.

 

[JohnW2]

For what it is worth I did once believe that a fluctuating magnetic field could affect aminal / human tissue.

A perfectly reasonable possibility to contemplate. Indeed, given that nerve, muscle and brain involve the movement of 'electric currents', it is inevitable that magnetic fields of sufficient magnitude and appropriate characteristics will have 'an effect' on animal (including human) bodies, but not necessarily a harmful or undesirable effect.

Blind and double blind tests on the effect of low frequency magnetic field fluctuations were carried out by a university and the conclusion was that the effects related more to what the subjects thought was happening and less to what was actually happening.

A very good and detailed objective summary of the situation from the WHO can be found here ... a couple of relevant snippets ....

It is not disputed that electromagnetic fields above certain levels can trigger biological effects. Experiments with healthy volunteers indicate that short-term exposure at the levels present in the environment or in the home do not cause any apparent detrimental effects. Exposures to higher levels that might be harmful are restricted by national and international guidelines. The current debate is centred on whether long-term low level exposure can evoke biological responses and influence people's well being.

Conclusions from scientific research
In the area of biological effects and medical applications of non-ionizing radiation approximately 25,000 articles have been published over the past 30 years. Despite the feeling of some people that more research needs to be done, scientific knowledge in this area is now more extensive than for most chemicals. Based on a recent in-depth review of the scientific literature, the WHO concluded that current evidence does not confirm the existence of any health consequences from exposure to low level electromagnetic fields. However, some gaps in knowledge about biological effects exist and need further research.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Conclusions from scientific research
In the area of biological effects and medical applications of non-ionizing radiation approximately 25,000 articles have been published over the past 30 years. Despite the feeling of some people that more research needs to be done, scientific knowledge in this area is now more extensive than for most chemicals. Based on a recent in-depth review of the scientific literature, the WHO concluded that current evidence does not confirm the existence of any health consequences from exposure to low level electromagnetic fields. However, some gaps in knowledge about biological effects exist and need further research.

I quoted that over 2 weeks ago.

The OP does not do scientific conclusions.

 

[JohnW2]

I quoted that over 2 weeks ago.

Apologies, I've lost track of what has, and has not, been said in this 'discussion'!

The OP does not do scientific conclusions.

Seemingly not.

Kind Regards, John