TRV issue, now discovered broken pipes in concrete floor

[TheKeymeister]

I've just drained down and flushed my system with the intention of fitting TRVs to 8 out of the 13 rads in the house ready for winter. The existing valves are 'Wasp Ten' wheelheads at both sides of each rad.

I managed to get the old valves and tails off without any problem, fitted the new Danfoss RAS-C2 valve and a new lockshield, but now the whole setup is about 20mm too wide to fit on the pipes. The issue seems to be that the old tails are shorter, and has the hex hole to tighten them up, whereas the new ones are a bit longer, with flats on the outside to tighten them up. Unfortunately they are different threads on the outgoing as well...

I've tried chipping out a bit of the floor to move the pipes across, but it is concrete and there's not enough movement to make it work, and all the downstairs rads are going to be the same. I can't find anywhere that sells 'short' radiator tails, and its too short of a distance to put two elbows on the pipe. From looking online most TRVs seem to have very similar tails so I'm a bit reluctant to go and buy a load to try.

Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get around this? Is there a secret supplier of tails that I don't know about? Am I going to have to buy new rads all round and modify the pipes to fit?

Here's a pic showing the differences between old and new

 

[FiremanT]

Normally, you can knock the olive back further. As you you tighten the nut, you can then knock the valve to push back the olive even further. I can't recall having had a problem that was not managed with this technique. Is the threaded portion fully tightened into the rad?

If this does not solve the problem, and I have never tried this, maybe you could cut the spigot down by a few mill?

 

[PK Gas]

Usually you can tap the the lockshield when on the tail piece to slide the olive further into the tail piece it can be tight though

 

[PK Gas]

Beat me to it

 

[TheKeymeister]

I've just tried that off the rad and it looks like it will work, only a couple of mm wider now. For some reason I thought the olive was fixed like on the old tail, but as you rightly said it can be knocked back - can't believe I didn't try it!

Even more so because I've just gone to fill the system back up and found out I've damaged one of the pipes under the floor where I've tried breaking some of the floor out...and got a utility room full of water.

 

[PK Gas]

Not what you want on a Saturday evening

 

[TheKeymeister]

When I **** up, I like to do it properly...

Managed to crack the pipe for a good few inches! I assume that's from me wiggling the pipe about trying to make things fit.


And this is currently the state of the utility room floor


I'm far too scared to even attempt soldering onto that, so I'll find a plumber to do it tomorrow...

I'm not too popular with the Mrs at the minute...and I think this is definitely worthy of going to the 'DIY Disasters' section

 

[muggles]

That looks like evidence of some serious corrosion if your pipes split like that. I'd be concerned about all the pipework under the floor and considering a repipe!

 

[Agile]

It looks to me as if it has become frozen at some time and split from the ice expansion.

Does not look as if it was protected in the cement.

You should have called a plumber to fix it for you!

Tony

 

[muggles]

It looks to me as if it has become frozen at some time and split from the ice expansion.

Does not look as if it was protected in the cement.

You should have called a plumber to fix it for you!

Tony

I shouldn't imagine it's been cold enough in the last week or so to freeze Tony, and there would have been a majorly soggy floor and a huge water bill if it had been leaking from that since last Winter! Looks to me like the pipe is wrapped in insulation

 

[TheKeymeister]

Well things have got worse, I was undoing another radiator and as I cracked the nut there was a rush of water, which promptly filled up the hole in the floor. I tightened it back up and quickly put an isolation valve on the end of it and shut it off, then cracked the nut again....and water is flowing from further back down the pipe. I've just remembered that when the heating is on, there's a warm patch at the doorway between the dining room and kitchen, about the size of one floor tile.

I'm now thinking that there's been a problem on this 'hot spot' for some time, and the concrete has formed a seal around the pipe, until I chipped some of it out and gave the water a path to escape. Does this sound at all possible or likely? It will make me infinitely more popular with the Mrs if I haven't caused it, although I'm dreading to think what the cost of re plumbing all of downstairs will be, would something like that be covered on house insurance?

Ps the pipe between the elbow and the radiator (where the split is) was wrapped in hessian tape, however further back it looks like it's just wrapped in clear plastic! No sand bedding or anything which I thought was the way to do it. House was built in 1997 if that helps...

Pps I'm not going to touch anything else on this at all now until consulting a plumber...

 

[Dan Robinson]

Now you see why us heating chaps have such a sunny disposition

 

[TheKeymeister]

Looks like a complete re pipe of downstairs heating is on the cards, had the plumber round earlier and he says I'm not the only one on this estate that's had this problem by a long way.... He capped off the expansion tank in the loft and pressure tested it and it wouldn't hold anything, and he said he could feel air coming out from back down the pipe which confirmed what I thought.

Insurance co are saying they will only pay for the making good and not for the repair itself, as they believe it's happened because the pipes are not lagged. Plumber has said to go back to them and say they are lagged to the standard at the time of installation (hessian wrapped) so will see what they say.

Either way it looks like a simple job has escalated into an astronomical job. The plumber has suggested replacing with drops in copper and running plastic under the upstairs floor for ease of installation as the upstairs is all chipboard floors. Running replacement pipes in the floor was ruled out as its apparently supposed to have an access lid on it nowadays which would be difficult under a tiled floor.

 

[leakydave]

Never seen copper pipe crack like that.

 

[TheKeymeister]

Plumber said that, he was that amazed he asked to keep it!