TV Aerial - BBC signal breaking down

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We live in south Manchester and the Winter Hill transmitter is about 20 miles as the crow flies.

The TV aerial was installed in 1987, when the house was built.

The aerial points towards some fairly high nearby trees, now showing a lot of new season growth. Recently, especially in windy conditions BBC 1 and 2 channels have been breaking down. Sometimes this is minor but other times picture and sound will be lost completely for a few seconds. It can make BBC unwatchable. Most other channels do not appear to be affected.

TV is a 10 year old, non-HD, LG.

The nearby trees are such that a higher pole or moving the aerial location (currently at the roof apex) is unlikely to make a lot of difference.

Is a new aerial likely to improve / solve this? Any other suggestions would be gratefully received.

Many thanks.
 
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Beyond those trees - does the aerial actually point towards Winter Hill?
Is Winter Hill (the other side of Manchester) the actual transmitter you should be pointing towards?

You may well have problems with the coax and the aerial being so old, connections may be worn, the coax may be corroded.
TBH If someone is going to go up on the roof they may as well put up a completely new aerial and coax while there.
 
@Skylark NW, such a lot has changed with TV transmissions in the time since your last aerial was installed. Before we get to that though, let me give you some good news.

The fact that your ITV signal isn't breaking up is significant. It means that the trees aren't killing all of your signal, so if you can get an aerial where the reception strength is as good for BBC as your ITV signal, then that's very likely to solve your problems.


Why are the trees causing the loss of BBC but not ITV?

This is to do with the reception capabilities of your existing aerial. In 1987, we had just four analogue channels. From Winter Hill in the Granada region, all of those channels broadcast in the upper region of the ch21~68 frequency range. The lowest was BBC1 on RF ch 55, and the highest was C4 on RF ch 65. Grouping the channels together like this allowed the broadcasting engineers to work out a way that main transmitters could overlap with their transmission areas without interfering significantly with each other.

All TV aerials work in a similar way in that they can either be broadband or tuned to a narrow frequency range. Each has its pros and cons.

Broadband aerial cover the entire frequency range, but the trade-off is that the signal power they can generate at any specific frequency is relatively low. Tuned or Group aerials to give them their proper title, focus the reception capability in to a narrow range of frequencies. The peak of their reception efficiency is within this tuned range, so they give a much stronger signal in that range. They still receive outside that band, but at far lower efficiencies.

Grouped-and-wideband-aerial-gain-curves-500H-L10.jpg


We still use Group aerial today. If anything, they're coming back in to fashion

I think it's very likely that you either have a Group C/D aerial (green curve: the range that best matches the analogue channel spread of the Winter Hill transmitter), or maybe a low efficiency wideband aerial (black curve). There are some other reasons for selective channel loss such as cables being trapped/crushed/bent, but Group C/D seems most logical as this would have given the aerial installer the strongest signal to match what Winter Hill was broadcasting.


What has changed?

In your case, it's the tree growth combined with changes to where the channels are now being broadcast for digital TV.

The channels being broadcast are no longer all up in the higher regions of ch 21 to 68. This is what all the digital retunes has been about. For a start, channels 60-68 are no longer available. They were sold off to make 4G mobile transmissions possible. We now have 5G mobile phones, so another part of the TV channel bands are being cleared to make way. Long term, all of the TV channels will be bunched together between ch 21 and 48. We still have some way to go before we get there, but if you're looking to future proof then this is what you need to plan for.


At the moment, the Winter Hill mux channels, in mux channel order, as received in Middlewich CW10 are as folllows. This will be the same for you, but you might also pick up the weaker Manchester local mux that's too low powered to reach me.

PSB1......BBCA.....(BBC1 SD, BBC2 SD, etc)...................mux ch 32
COM6.....ARQB.....(commercial SD channels)..................mux ch 37
COM5.....ARQA.....(commercial SD channels)..................mux ch 49
PSB3......BBCB.....(HD versions of BBC and ITV stations)..mux ch 54
COM7.....ARQC.....(commercial SD and HD channels).......mux ch 55
COM8..................(commercial SD and HD channels).......mux ch 56
COM4.....SDN.......(commercial SD channels)..................mux ch 58
PSB2......D3+4.....(ITV1 SD, Ch4 SD, Ch5 SD etc)...........mux ch 59

KEY:
Mux = short for multiplex; a way of transmitting several channels using a single frequency. This is the basis of how Freeview digital TV offers more channels than the old analogue service
PSB = Public Service Broadcast. These are the stations that every house that receives Freeview should be able to pick up.
COM = Commercial stations outside of the PSB remit. You'll get these from a main transmitter such as Winter Hill or Emley Moor in Yorkshire, but not from the smaller repeater stations such as Saddleworth
SD = standard definition; these are channels that any Freeview receiver should be able to pick up as long as the mux is broadcasting signals suitable for a DVB-T* tuner
HD = High Definition; channels only suitable for a TV with a Freeview HD tuner

DVB-T = the basic Freeview transmission standard used on the PSB muxes
DVB-T2 = a newer version of broadcasting Freeview which enables the transmission of HD channels
* = some SD channels broadcast in the COM muxes require a TV with a HD-capable tuner even though the channel itself isn't HD




For someone installing an aerial today, they could choose a wideband high-gain aerial but I think that would be quite short-sighted. The frequencies it works best with will be empty in a few years. A better choice is a Group T Log Periodic aerial - A Log 36 to be precise. This provides good reception from ch 21 to ch 60, so works well for transmissions today. Also, because the gain curve is relatively flat, then any reallocation of the channels won't make too much of a difference to the reception strength from the aerial. It's a good long-term bet.

If required, some amplification can be added to help cope with the signal reducing effect of all that water in the leaves and branches. Depending on the trees and how they grow, there may come a time though when either thr trees have to be cut back, or you switch to an alternative such as satellite reception (Freesat)






If this advice or any other reply was helpful to you, then please do the decent thing and click the T-H-A-N-K-S button; that's thanks, not like, there's an important difference. It appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons. It costs you nothing. This is the proper way to show your thanks for the time and help someone gave you.
 
Errrmmm.... BIG ISSUE.

Winter Hill BBC A mux moved on 20th February outwith a C/D aerial to frequency channel 32. The old BBC mux was (and still is AFAIK) simulcasting on the old frequency (ch 50). This was to 'flush out' viewers with C/D rather than wideband aerials so they could get replacements installed {via Freeview courtesy of the 5G mobiles}.

Check for better quality copies of the BBC channels stored in the 751 to 777 numbers to use those temporarily? https://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/wor...ting-television-services-in-the-north-west-of

Covid halted that project to install new aerials.
So other frequency changes: D3&4 from 59 to 34, BBC B from 54 to 35, SDN 58 to 29 and ARQ A 49 to 31 have all been put on hold.

OP will be eligible for free help once 'normal service' is resumed.
 
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Beyond those trees - does the aerial actually point towards Winter Hill?
Is Winter Hill (the other side of Manchester) the actual transmitter you should be pointing towards?

You may well have problems with the coax and the aerial being so old, connections may be worn, the coax may be corroded.
TBH If someone is going to go up on the roof they may as well put up a completely new aerial and coax while there.

Thanks mattylad,
According to the Freeview website, for my postcode my transmitter should be Winter Hill. Interestingly, according to an OS map, the transmitter should bear around 340-350 degrees. Very roughly, standing under the aerial while looking at a compass, it is pointing pretty much due north. Looking around the neighbourhood, it's really hard to judge bearings but it looks like some are pointing NW and others N, like mine. Very confusing :confused:

I can imagine that the aerial and coax are both showing signs of age. I recently spoke to an aerial installer but he told me that he wasn't working during lockdown unless it's some sort of emergency.
 
Aerials, even the most directional, have a fairly wide 'acceptance angle' so anything +/- 20 degrees off beam often makes little difference to the signal levels received.

North is 360 degrees, NW 315 degrees so both are probably within an acceptable mis-pointing tolerance. (Analogue days, some mis-pointing was deliberate to reduce an unwanted ghost reflection) The Freeview detailed view prediction tool Checker will give you a more precise number for your address.
 
Thanks, Lucid,
That's a very comprehensive response, thanks for taking the time to construct it.
I've gooled Group T Log 36 Periodic TV aerial and there seems a huge choice with very differing prices. Without contravening any forum rules, any recommendations of a decent quality brand?

As I wrote above, local TV guys don't seem to be working during lockdown so I may have to think about hiring a 4m platform, or whatever is required to safely get to my roof apex.
 
Perhaps loosening the fixings and rotating it a little while someone that's watching the TV tells you better/worse via a phone might help.
Sometimes pointing in the wrong direction can work if you have tall buildings around you as the signal can bounce off of them (with lots of "it depends").

There could be a good reason why some of the other aerials are pointing NW - perhaps try it?
 
Thanks mattylad,
According to the Freeview website, for my postcode my transmitter should be Winter Hill. Interestingly, according to an OS map, the transmitter should bear around 340-350 degrees. Very roughly, standing under the aerial while looking at a compass, it is pointing pretty much due north. Looking around the neighbourhood, it's really hard to judge bearings but it looks like some are pointing NW and others N, like mine. Very confusing :confused:

I can imagine that the aerial and coax are both showing signs of age. I recently spoke to an aerial installer but he told me that he wasn't working during lockdown unless it's some sort of emergency.

The alignment for analogue is different to digital. You're looking at recommendations for digital, but your aerial was installed for analogue. Thats why there's a difference.

Analogue installations sometimes had to cope with something called multipath interference. This is where the aerial receives two or more versions of the signal. This happened because some building or physical feature reflected the transmission heading in a different direction and bounced them towards an aerial already receiving signal directly. The two or more signals interfere with each other. The most obvious effect is ghosting. Altering the angle of the aerial could reduce the impact of the weaker reflected signal.

The transmissions for digital TV don't suffer this as much, but even so, when I'm on roofs doing alignments with my meter I sometimes find that I can get a more even signal level from all the muxes by adjusting the aerial angle away from the direct compass heading.

Incidentally, I cover up to Bramhall/Hazel Grove/Woodford.My aerial wholesalers have been working right through. As long as social distancing rules are followed then there's no real issue.


If you still want to go DIY, the guys at Aerials & TV is Sheffield are excellent.
 
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Errrmmm.... BIG ISSUE.

Winter Hill BBC A mux moved on 20th February outwith a C/D aerial to frequency channel 32. The old BBC mux was (and still is AFAIK) simulcasting on the old frequency (ch 50). This was to 'flush out' viewers with C/D rather than wideband aerials so they could get replacements installed {via Freeview courtesy of the 5G mobiles}.

Check for better quality copies of the BBC channels stored in the 751 to 777 numbers to use those temporarily? https://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/wor...ting-television-services-in-the-north-west-of

Covid halted that project to install new aerials.
So other frequency changes: D3&4 from 59 to 34, BBC B from 54 to 35, SDN 58 to 29 and ARQ A 49 to 31 have all been put on hold.

OP will be eligible for free help once 'normal service' is resumed.

Well, I was confused before I wrote my query......now's there's no hope :D

I can get BBC1 on Ch 751 (didn't know I had a Ch 751 until 5 minutes ago). Ch 1 is behaving itself today. Next time it starts breaking up I'll try Ch 751.

I clicked on the link and came across another page showing "direction of transmitters". The map shows north (probably about 010 degrees) is Haslingden and north west (about 340 to 350 deg) is Winter Hill. I would say that my aerial is pointing towards Haslingden, even though it looks farther away. Oh dear.
 
Haslingden will have the cross-rods vertical along the long horizontal boom arm of the aerial. Winter Hill has them horizontal.

That you have the Winter Hill tuned and the 751-777 channels proves to me you are pointing and tuned to Winter Hill.

TV metering systems can sometimes help diagnosis, they show signal strength and signal quality. They can show the tuned frequencies / channel numbers often as well to confirm which transmitter is tuned to.

EDIT But my advice is to sit tight and wait for the Freeview help scheme to restart as they will be able to provide free assistance with your unreliable reception of the new ch32 BBC transmissions.
 
Aerials, even the most directional, have a fairly wide 'acceptance angle' so anything +/- 20 degrees off beam often makes little difference to the signal levels received.

North is 360 degrees, NW 315 degrees so both are probably within an acceptable mis-pointing tolerance. (Analogue days, some mis-pointing was deliberate to reduce an unwanted ghost reflection) The Freeview detailed view prediction tool Checker will give you a more precise number for your address.

Thanks for this, Rodders,
I've checked the site and Winter Hill is 28km bearing 338 deg and Haslingden is 35km bearing 005 deg.
Perhaps loosening the fixings and rotating it a little while someone that's watching the TV tells you better/worse via a phone might help.
Sometimes pointing in the wrong direction can work if you have tall buildings around you as the signal can bounce off of them (with lots of "it depends").

There could be a good reason why some of the other aerials are pointing NW - perhaps try it?
That sounds like a sensible approach but I've no easy means of going aloft. Plus, when the signal is breaking up it's usually windy, not always good mix. If I'm going there, it probably makes more sense to change the aerial, its fittings and the coax. After reading these helpful posts, I don't now know where I've been picking up signals from Winter Hill or from Haslingden for the last 30 odd years.

Looking around my neighbourhood, I'm pretty sure that there's a mix.
 
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Haslingden will have the cross-rods vertical along the long horizontal boom arm of the aerial. Winter Hill has them horizontal.

That you have the Winter Hill tuned and the 751-777 channels proves to me you are pointing and tuned to Winter Hill.

TV metering systems can sometimes help diagnosis, they show signal strength and signal quality. They can show the tuned frequencies / channel numbers often as well to confirm which transmitter is tuned to.

EDIT But my advice is to sit tight and wait for the Freeview help scheme to restart as they will be able to provide free assistance with your unreliable reception of the new ch32 BBC transmissions.
Thanks, again,
I do appreciate all of the help being offered. Thank you all.
I'll check to see if I have a vertically or horizontally polarised elements.
I guess by TV metering systems you mean professional, not the sort of meter to be found at Homebase? Given that my aerial is absolutely not pointing directly at Winter Hill, is rotating the aerial for max signal strength the only crieria used today (ghosting and other types of interference mentioned above)?

Edit, your edit is probably what I'll do. Wait a while. I will try Ch 751 if my Ch1 starts breaking down.
 
35km from Haslingden (2 kW erp) = VERY unlikely compared to 28km from Winter Hill (100 kW erp). Especially as it's 50 degrees off the beam of your aerial.

WRH is also a Main transmitter so much more reliable than a 3-frequency relay like Haslingden.

The TV set will have a meter built in - signal condition Panasonic call it on mine. They aren't always super helpful but often are good enough.
Don't buy anything. The good ones are £££ to ££££

In your situation I'll advise again to do nothing. Wait for the Freeview FREE (paid for by the mobile phone companies) aerial assistance once it resumes.
 
ISTR Haslingden (just up the road from me) offers far far less channels - or it did when I put my aerial up and pointed it at Winter Hill.

As above, put up with it and wait for the free help.
The BBC can often be improved with a choppy signal :)
 

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