Upgrading old consumer board - off peak and basic questions

[JohnW2]

RCD protection on off peak boards always get omitted during consumer unit changes.

I realise that's what usually happens - which is why, as I said, my advice would be the same as TTCs (i.e. to leave it alone).

But to bring it up to date, if you want it to current standards, you would provide RCD protection for the off peak. Not that anyone would usually be drilling holes at night, but it would need doing on new work, if the cables were buried in the wall at less than 50 mm.

I largely agree, although 'off-peak' supplies obviously sometimes have periods of being live during daylight hours as well. As above, I would be happy to advise someone to leave it without RCD protection. My only point was that, whatever you, I or anyone else may think, if 'bringing up to current regs' would require RCD protection then some (presumably 'clever') people must feel that it is worthwhile. They presumably don't include requirements just for the hell of it.

Though pointless, I would be tempted to fit a new off peak board with an RCD main incomer (but only in my house, if it was anyone else's money I would suggest because it is 'existing' to leave it alone unless they want to spend money).

The same would probably be true of me. As I wrote recently in this thread, there is a theoretical (although probably very weak) argument for RCD-protecting anything and everything (which is, of course, where the regs are fairly rapidly heading).

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Does anyone with S/Heaters have a problem this time of year with elements absorbing water and tripping an RCD ?

Are you suggesting that would be a reason for, or against, RCD protection? - i.e. do you see a L-E leak in an element (not large enough to rapidly operate the OPD), in the absence of an RCD, to be a potential hazard or not?

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

I did wonder about advising leaving the off peak alone but thought the OP's asking for an upgrade and asking about all the boards so that's how I'll base my answer.

The OP now has his options. It's really not worth running up another page about.

 

[sparkwright]

It's really not worth running up another page about.

Yes it is. i've got all night.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Does anyone with S/Heaters have a problem this time of year with elements absorbing water and tripping an RCD ?

Are you suggesting that would be a reason for, or against, RCD protection? -

I don't know the intent but it is neither.

i.e. do you see a L-E leak in an element (not large enough to rapidly operate the OPD), in the absence of an RCD, to be a potential hazard or not?

The RCD requirements concern the cable installation; they are nothing to do with the appliance.

 

[AndyPRK]

Does anyone with S/Heaters have a problem this time of year with elements absorbing water and tripping an RCD ?

Are you suggesting that would be a reason for, or against, RCD protection? - i.e. do you see a L-E leak in an element (not large enough to rapidly operate the OPD), in the absence of an RCD, to be a potential hazard or not?

Kind Regards, John

A reason against RCD protection.

As you say its highly likely that the heaters would be off when someone had a drill in their hand.

 

[AndyPRK]

It's really not worth running up another page about.

Yes it is. i've got all night.

Ban's not posting ATM so it might stay below 6 pages

 

[sparkwright]

Then again, the effects of drilling through a cable earlier during the day could only be noticed later on...

 

[AndyPRK]

yes I did consider that.

Not going to cause a shock to someone hopefully, but could go unnoticed until night time.

 

[sparkwright]

There could be screws or nails in the wall.

 

[JohnW2]

Does anyone with S/Heaters have a problem this time of year with elements absorbing water and tripping an RCD ?

Are you suggesting that would be a reason for, or against, RCD protection? -

I don't know the intent but it is neither.

I'm not so sure about that. If Andy didn't consider the leaky element to be a hazard, then he would presumably regard it as an argument against RCD protection, since he would then regard what he described as a 'nuisance trip'

i.e. do you see a L-E leak in an element (not large enough to rapidly operate the OPD), in the absence of an RCD, to be a potential hazard or not?

The RCD requirements concern the cable installation; they are nothing to do with the appliance.

Is that not a narrow view of the (probable) intent, based on considering of only certain regulations? ... Why has there for a long time been a requirement for RCD protection of sockets likely to be used for outside equipment? Why is there now a requirement for RCD protection of nearly all sockets, even if none of the circuit's cable is buried/concealed? Why is there a requirement for RCD protection of everything in bathrooms, regardless of cable routing? Do you think all those requirements 'concern the cable installation'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As you say its highly likely that the heaters would be off when someone had a drill in their hand.

I didn't quite say that! - on the contrary, I reminded you that some 'off peak circuits' could be live at times of day when someone might have a drill in their hand!

Anyway, as has been said, it is not only the immediate situation at the moment one penetrates a cable that is an issue - there is the potential continuing aftermath (when the circuit does become live, if it wasn't when the cable was penetrated).

Anyway (2) ... I thought you were talking about leaky elements, not penetration of cables by drills?

Kind Regards, John

 

[sparkwright]

It's not just about cable routing.

But I would say here the primary case for the off peak board to be RCD protected would be the cable routing.

That said, it's not unheard for storage heaters (such as the small ones without external controls) to be situated in bathrooms.

It's also not unheard for storage heater points to be converted to sockets to power washing machines or whatever at night.

Incidently, it's not recommended.

 

[JohnW2]

It's not just about cable routing.

I know - that's what I've just written to EFLI.

But I would say here the primary case for the off peak board to be RCD protected would be the cable routing.

Agree - but, as you go on to say ...

That said, it's not unheard for storage heaters (such as the small ones without external controls) to be situated in bathrooms. ... It's also not unheard for storage heater points to be converted to sockets to power washing machines or whatever at night.

(and we might be able to think of even more possibilities, too, if we put our minds to it!)

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I'm not so sure about that. If Andy didn't consider the leaky element to be a hazard, then he would presumably regard it as an argument against RCD protection, since he would then regard what he described as a 'nuisance trip'

I suppose but that is nothing to do with whether an RCD must be fitted or not.

i.e. do you see a L-E leak in an element (not large enough to rapidly operate the OPD), in the absence of an RCD, to be a potential hazard or not?

Firstly, has it ever happened?
Secondly, not really.

Is that not a narrow view of the (probable) intent, based on considering of only certain regulations? ... Why has there for a long time been a requirement for RCD protection of sockets likely to be used for outside equipment?

I was only referring to the storage heater.

Why is there now a requirement for RCD protection of nearly all sockets, even if none of the circuit's cable is buried/concealed?

Because of hand-held tools with trailing leads.
I can see the regulations evolving in that to reduce nuisance trips an RCBO shall be fitted to each circuit and then perhaps allowing omission from some circuits for specific purposes (reverting to as now) and then realising they ar not as wonderful as first thought so who knows?

Why is there a requirement for RCD protection of everything in bathrooms, regardless of cable routing?

Well, we both know why but is it valid?
I suppose it could be argued that the answer is yes because of the water.

Do you think all those requirements 'concern the cable installation'?

No they don't but it applies bathroom or not.