Use of Powerline units instead of proper wifi or cables.

[winston1]

whitepaper195

https://www.ban-plt.org.uk

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.p...te-owners-bad-powerline-network-adapters.html

 

[JP_]

"We recall some examples of BTVision shipping older Comtrend adapters several years ago, which made some people unhappy. In a few cases similar kit was also blamed for causing interference with sound systems, DAB/FM radio and even broadband ADSL lines, among other things."
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.p...te-owners-bad-powerline-network-adapters.html

I dunno, but this does not sound reason the ban them...

My neighbour's tree interferes with my satellite signal. Maybe we should ban trees.

 

[winston1]

"We recall some examples of BTVision shipping older Comtrend adapters several years ago, which made some people unhappy. In a few cases similar kit was also blamed for causing interference with sound systems, DAB/FM radio and even broadband ADSL lines, among other things."
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.p...te-owners-bad-powerline-network-adapters.html

I dunno, but this does not sound reason the ban them...

My neighbour's tree interferes with my satellite signal. Maybe we should ban trees.

Causing electro magnetic interference is illegal and could be dangerous in the case of emergency services. Powerline adapters always cause interference when used as intended and cannot be supressed. So of course they should be banned. There are other and better ways of getting internet round your house.

Your neighbours tree does not interfere with your satellite signal. You have chosen to install your dish where it is shaded by the tree. The same thing can happen with hills or tall buildings, do you want to ban those as well?

 

[JP_]

Trees grow, you know. Wasn't that big when the dish went up!

I've still not heard a case when a radio signal was blocked by such a device. Crackle and pop maybe, but not actual blocking.

My mum's food mixer used to interfere with the radio. I might have to report her and her food mixer to the radio police!

 

[winston1]

I've still not heard a case when a radio signal was blocked by such a device. Crackle and pop maybe, but not actual blocking.

You've clearly not looked at the links then, especially the second one with the youtube video. But crackle and pop is interference which can made reading the signal impossible, very important for emergency services.

My mum's food mixer used to interfere with the radio. I might have to report her and her food mixer to the radio police!

No such force as radio police. No, the answer is to get it suppressed. Quite a simple and legally required job.

Powerline adapters cannot be suppressed due to the way in which they work which is why they should be banned.

 

[bernardgreen]

Can we have some real life examples, rather than just theoretical problems?

Mist cases are dealt with informally and the transgressing equipment is voluntarily taken out of service. Documents relating to these events are internal and not in the public domain.

 

[JP_]

So, are these incidents really they same as the average person plugging in a couple of home powerline adaptors to get internet to their TV? The links shared mentioned how only problems seen were on some old adaptors, and when people used proper antenna there was no problem. These unrecorded cases of voluntarily taking equipment out of service, is this just some very isolated cases, where Mr X complained about his neighbour's internet and somebody asked him politely to switch it off.

Again, is this a reason for an all out ban?

 

[mattylad]

I gave up using my HF radios a few years ago due to the noise levels produced by both ADSL and PLT.
For years I have been adamant that these will not cross my doorstep. Now however as I have been given a pair I may use them if I get stuck (cant beat em, just join em!)

 

[JP_]

ADSL caused issues too? That is standard broadband still, isn't it?

 

[winston1]

, and when people used proper antenna there was no problem.

From the BBC White paper I linked to:
"The PLAs were also found to disturb reception of FM using an external antenna at one of the homes."

These unrecorded cases of voluntarily taking equipment out of service, is this just some very isolated cases, where Mr X complained about his neighbour's internet and somebody asked him politely to switch it off.

I understand Ofcom have had hundreds of complaints. I think being asked to switch would be a bit more forceful than you suggest, and not complying would be a criminal offence.

[QUOTE="jonbey, post: 4276691, member: 187961"

Again, is this a reason for an all out ban?[/QUOTE]

Yes, there no other way to stop interference from them.

 

[JP_]

I think being asked to switch would be a bit more forceful than you suggest

I was just responding to Bernard's comment that "Most cases are dealt with informally and the transgressing equipment is voluntarily taken out of service".

I really don't know much about it, just asking questions to learn more!

 

[ericmark]

There are many things sold in UK which your not allowed to use as sold, or using them with wrong stuff does things which you are simply unaware of, for example a LED lamp powered from a high frequency AC power supply. Or even a quartz lamp with extra low voltage supply leads over the length limit.

I would guess although never tried one can plug one of these LAN extenders into a filtered socket and the interference will be within the EMC limits, although likely it would not work, but the unit passes the tests until you plug it into an unfiltered socket, and this it the problem, they are not always a problem so you can't actually say the unit does not comply, it only does not comply when plugged into an unfiltered socket.

So if I get my TV screen with interference lines across it I can call the Ofcom and complain, and they will try to find out where it comes from, if it turns out to be next doors vacuum cleaner, they will be told to get it fixed, it is the same with these LAN extenders, if I am sure next door is messing up my TV with one, I can report it to Ofcom and they can come and tell next door to get it fixed.

However when you hear next doors vacuum go on and at same time you see lines on TV it's easy enough to work out where it's coming from, but detecting where the LAN repeaters are is another story.

I remember there was a game played by radio people where some one would hide with a radio, and the rest of group would try to find them, if you sat under cables and transmitted the signal would follow the cables making it hard to find the fox, same with these units, you may know what is causing the interference but it is radiated from power cables so very hard to pin point.

It is very clear they should not be used, but finding them in use is hard, and illegal to use, but not to buy or sell, so we want them made the same as guns, where you can't buy or sell them.

There is a walkie talky called PMR 446 which is licence free, there are also some that look nearly the same but are supplied on wrong frequency and don't have the little badge to say licence free, but there is nothing stopping anyone selling a BAOFENG 888S radio, as you can change the frequency to one you can legally use. There is no warning on the radio to say it's not PMR 446 and if you changed the frequency to PMR 446 ones, then in real terms no real harm, although technically wrong as does not have little badge. But at least you can do some thing, with the LAN over power cables, there is nothing you can do and still allow them to work.

 

[bernardgreen]

if it turns out to be next doors vacuum cleaner, they will be told to get it fixed, it is the same with these LAN extenders,

Generally speaking if TV and / or radio reception is suffering from persistant interference then Ofcom can take action against the person responsible for the equipment causing the interference.

if you sat under cables and transmitted the signal would follow the cables making it hard to find the fox, same with these units, you may know what is causing the interference but it is radiated from power cables so very hard to pin point.

I am told ( by a retired but reliable source ) that the house / building from which the interference is radiating can be located without much difficulty. There is then no need to specifical pin point the item. The proof that the source is in the house / building is achieved by turning the power OFF and see the interference signals dis-appear from the off air spectrum analyser. Then words are said to the effect of ""You have a souce of interference powered by mains electricity. Cease using it ""

 

[SimonH2]

I would guess although never tried one can plug one of these LAN extenders into a filtered socket and the interference will be within the EMC limits, although likely it would not work, but the unit passes the tests until you plug it into an unfiltered socket ...

AIUI, one of the tricks is that these units are tested while plugged into a filtered socket - and lo, they pass the required EMC tests to be legally put on the market
The big problem is that for many years, the authorities have been tossing this hot potato around and expending significant energy is showing that each possible department isn't responsible for it. IIRC it was something like : Ofcon said that because the devices weren't explicitly designed to radiate energy, they are not a radio set and so they can't intervene; another department said that because they pass the EMC tests, they can't intervene; and so on.
I can see why people like these units - they are really convenient to use. There's very few situations where alternatives CAN'T be used, but a lot where the alternatives are simply a lot more hassle. It's no good expecting the average user to understand why they shouldn't buy and use them; and you can't expect anyone to voluntarily stop selling them; and it's unreasonable for other users of the spectrum to play whack-a-mole with new installations appearing. So the only way round these problems really is a total ban.

 

[bernardgreen]

Simon H is correct about how these devices fall into a gap in the regulations.

Hence the non specific instruction to a user to cease using what ever equipment in their house or building that is radiating illegal radio frequency energy.