vitodens 200-w to albion ultrasteel hot water cylinder

[RDS25]

my plumber has installed a viessmann vitrodens 200-w which he has plumbed into a Albion ultrasteel hot water cylinder (my plumber does not touch electrics)
My electrician has connected an immersion heater to the cylinder but he has now left the area so can not finish the job..
The vitodens has a low voltage plug and play system, and my plumber brought a additional module to connect a controller.
Does anyone know how these are connected electronically (wiring diagrams etc.) as the boiler needs to control the water cylinder. And I suspect having the immersion on is costing me quite a lot.
I can not find anything useful that covers this on the internet.
any suggestions?

 

[Agile]

The cylinder sensor just connects to the boiler.

BUT because the cylinder does not anticipate that sensor it may need some modification to fit the sensor to it.

Furthermore an unvented cylinder must be correctly installed by a registered person in respect of the pluimbing AND the electrical connections to be safe.

For that reason I strongly recommend you to get a registered engineer o check the way its been installed and fit the sensor.

Was he boiler installer Viess approved so you have a five year warrantee and was it correctly notified to Building Control?

Tony Glazier

 

[RDS25]

Thanks Tony,
The plumber is gas safety registered and he selected the boiler and cylinder.
As far as he is concerned he has finished the job as he has connected the 4 pipes into the boiler but not the electrics to control it (as I said he does not do the electrics).

the problem appears to be that the vitrodens boiler has a low voltage controller that is designed to "plug and play" into a viessmann cylinder.

my question is are there any instruction for connecting this to a cylinder that has a 240 volt connection. I am after some simple instructions I can give to another electrician.

regards
Richard

 

[Agile]

I am not going to tell you how to do it because as far as I can see your cylinder has not been correctly installed.

It needs to be wired by a qualified heating engineer with the G3 certificate for unventeds.

An elkectrician does not have that qualification!

Most competent heating engineers have no probloem doing wiring.

Tony

 

[D_Hailsham]

How did the plumber commission the boiler and fill in the Benchmark information if the cylinder was not properly connected?

It would be worth checking on Gas Safe Register that your plumber has the required unvented qualification.

 

[mickyg]

I've never known a heating engineer just turn up connect the pipes and conclude job done. If he doesnt do electrics then surely he would employ his own electrician. He hasn't finished the job because the boiler hasn't been commissioned. Has he even had it running?? are we even getting the full story....i suspect not !

 

[Norcon]

any suggestions?

You wire the boiler controller in series with the unvented cylinder control thermostats.


The normal cylinder stat just becomes another "higher" limit stat as the set point is adjusted above the boiler sensor set point setting so the boiler has automony.

The boiler control has priority with the boiler thermostats as back up safety controls in the case of an overheat which will interlock the boiler.
The only issue might be the sensor location though your cylinder might have a solar pocket that might work.

 

[RDS25]

the boiler is running and heating the house.
the hot water is being heated by the immersion (I was told that this was a temp solution that has now been in place for a few months).

I have checked with the gas safety register and the plumber is registered with them. However they don't seem very interested if a plumber has done a good job or not.

The plumber has filled in the cylinder benchmark form (but not handed it to me I found it a stack of papers stuck behind the boiler pipes)

I want to check that
a) he has not put in an incompatible boiler and cylinder
b) I want to stop using the immersion heater for hot water as the boiler should be doing this
c) I can't find any literature from Viessam with a wiring diagram from their boiler to another manufacturers cylinder.

I agree that the plumber should have done all this but he has not and is proving rather elusive. So I am trying to get some answers so this time I understand exactly what is being done before I get a professional in to finish the job.

 

[CharteredEngineer]

This really depends on how the cylinder and controls are wired up.

Two options that I can think of,

Viessmann Controls (System Boiler),
The cylinder stat goes directly to the boiler control and it takes care of it. Considering the brand of cylinder, I don't think its wired like this. This would also require a positive shut off energized valve. If you use a Viessmann cylinder the shut off is within the boiler and you don't need an external one.

230V Controls
The cylinder is going to a wiring centre, along with a switched connection for the boiler. Basically the only thing the boiler does is heat water and pump it. There will probably be a couple of external valves. You need to check to see what plan it is, but its usually an S or modified Y. Here's a link to common 230v controls http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Horstmann/Pics.pdf

 

[Norcon]

http://tinyurl.com/6dln2h8

Page 54-Fig 51

Connection 21 in the legend will supply the cylinder stat which energises the mv. Orange from the mv to the pump.
Cylinder sensor to 5.
Thats how I see it anyway.

 

[RDS25]

Norcan,
that looks useful it has far more detail on than the instalation instructions I have
should I be concerned that this is an american set of instructions?

 

[Norcon]

should I be concerned that this is an american set of instructions?

The pdf link is Viessmanns "heating contractor" instructions that just happened to come up when I googled them.

But no I don't think there will be any issues just because the source of the pdf is from the usa.

You might have to holesaw the casing to fit the sensor. When I came up against this problem with an oso and a siemens rvp 300 series controller the controls engineer just fitted the sensor in the solar pocket.
Not ideal bit it works.

A better solution would be to holesaw the casing (say 50mm) at the appropiate level, make a slot in the insulation to expose the cylinder wall and then make good with a rubber blanking plug or grommet.
Mini trunking with adhesive backing (or adhesive cable tie clips) can house the cabling and you will have a neat tidy job.

 

[Agile]

So I am trying to get some answers so this time I understand exactly what is being done before I get a professional in to finish the job.

Whilst I agree that your boiler installer has let you down I thin k your effort should be going into getting someone competent to do the job properly.

Depending on where you are someone on here may be able to help you.

Tony

 

[CharteredEngineer]

Norcan,
that looks useful it has far more detail on than the instalation instructions I have
should I be concerned that this is an american set of instructions?

I think your PCB will be different.

The UK has a stupid regulation which requires an energized cut off on an unvented cylinder. In the USA and Canada, this is not required.

A lot of the Viessmann machines that are sold into the UK have an energized cut off in them, I don't know about the ones in the states.

 

[simond]

Re: Chartered Engineer,

Speaking as someone who has fitted Viessmann 200Ws with third party unvented cylinders, you are stating suppositions, not fact.

Norcon is on the money (usually the case).

This wiring job is a bit tricky and most plumbers won't attempt it. Not rocket science though As Agile points out, this chap can't have signed it off if it isn't working. If you get a leccy to wire it up (that will be emotional) he can't sign it off either.

Moral; pay the right money and get it done properly.