First time buyer - plumbing, drains and heating

[masamune]

Hi,

I am buying my first house and plan on re-visiting the property before exchange. I have a few questions, perhaps more than a few and would like some opinions/suggestions on what to look out for.

1. The survey pointed out the drains are partially blocked. Our conveyancer added this into enquiries and the seller replied that surface water builds up on the drive and soaks away, they are not blocked. Is this a reasonable response to accept and should I call for someone to check on my visit?

2. It also assumes the mains pipe may be of lead because of the age of the property, although I believe it would be covered with limescale. I am planning to have the water tested for lead concentration first. Is it worth the trouble of changing the pipe and how costly it could be?

3. The boiler was installed 4 yrs ago and I obtained a building's regulation compliance certificate from the seller. The certificate refers to the owner as the applicant and also the one who carried out the work (strange unless it just refers to the undertaker). I don't think of anything dodgy but should I call gas safe to confirm?

Most importantly, there is no gas certificate, but this does not mean it is not safe. Is there anything I should look out for or call a gas safe engineer to inspect?

4. The water is gravity fed from a tank in the loft and a cylinder in one of the bedrooms with a condensing boiler located in the kitchen. Generally the system looks fairly looked after but I don't know much about this layout, I've lived with combi boilers only. I am worried about the pressure and think of installing a pump, mainly for showers. I heard that I may need to change some pipes due to the pressure difference, but I haven't got much clue yet. I may also build a bathroom at the ground floor in the future. How costly would the plumbing be for this job (apart from the bathroom fitting work) and should I install pipes pro-actively to feed another shower right below the main bathroom?

Anything else to look out for gas/plumbing related?

Sorry for the massive post, you don't need to address all the questions but thanks for reading!

 

[buck51]

It time to get to know your local Plumbing & heating engineer,

get him to check it over for you and give estimates.

 

[masamune]

I am calling someone to come in with me, but it would be good to have an idea of what to expect.

Thanks

 

[mogget]

Regarding the lead pipe, many water companies operate a lead replacement scheme where you do (or have done) the work up to the boundary and the water company connects on in the road for free. I did this solely for increased flow as I live in a hard water area and was not worried about the lead in the water. You can check the water hardness with the water supplier.

Regarding the vented hot water system, this system actually has some advantages as you have stored hot water. You can draw from more than one outlet at once, and if the boiler breaks down you can use the immersion heater to get hot water. The downside is as you suspected, the pressure is lower and you may need a pump for your shower.

Regarding the drains, I suspect that a CCTV survey would be the correct way about diagnosing the problem, but there are people on here who know far more about drains than I do.

I am not qualified to comment on gas matters.

 

[ree]

In terms of buying a house, the above possible difficulties are mickey mouse.

Take a Plumber/Gas Safe with you and do a walk through the property with all the paperwork to hand.

If you have intentions of moving any gas or water pipes or apps then now's the time to discuss it, and ask for a quote. (All lead pipework, internal or external, should be removed - no testing necessary).

A gas safe will test the installation and issue any certs on completion of any work, or as a void property.

 

[GoodDIYjob]

I'm not a plumber but have had some experience of some of the things to which you refer.

1. Insufficient information to say. The surface water May or may not be related to what the surveyor was pointing out. He or she may have lifted a inspection cover and noted build up. Or looked at toilet flush or shower draining. You need to re read the report for more detail or phone the surveyor and go from there. If there is a problem it wouldn't be unusual for a vendor to try to deny it, then again they may be unaware.

2. As previous poster says contact water company to get tested. Also get them to check mains pressure and flow while they are at it. You can check flow inside at your first draw off, usually kitchen tap with a bucket and stop watch. Results of current flow rate will determine if you could consider an unvented cylinder without touching the supply pipe. This assumes the lead levels are ok. Might be preferable to replace anyway. Cost will depend on survey and length from road stopcock but would be upwards from £650 if having to fund it yourself.

3. Not sure. Always worthwhile to get a proper service or inspection when at a new property. A competent gas engineer should check the overall installation soundness and safety.

4. Too many variables to say. Age, condition, design and spec etc. if your shower is upstairs and cold storage at rafter level, pressure will be pretty poor. If system really is in pretty good nic a twin impellar shower pump would be an effective solution to improve shower supply. I have had a few different ones in the past which have been ok, but required periodic seal replacement and were quite noisy.

I understand Stuart turner monsoon are one of the best. It needs to be balanced twin supply pumping hot and cold. You would also need a decent sized cold storage tank to support the higher flow rates.

Doing other pipe work now for some possible bathroom development that may occur or may not and may ultimately be sited differently when it comes time to do it, doesn't make much sense to me.

If you need more depth than the above you probably need to get a few competent engineers in to discuss options and quote. It will be impossible to give much more than ballpark minimum costs on here (if at all) without inspecting so they won't be all that helpful as far as costings.

GoodDIYJob

 

[Whitling2k]

Regarding the drains - depends where is slow/blocked! there are many variables here and we don't have much information - so I'm speculating on most of them...

Can you lift the manhole covers? Is there evidence of water rising recently within the manholes (tissues and s..t high above where you would expect it to be)? Perhaps fill & empty bath/sinks and flush as many toilets as possible at once - give it a right good flow-through - does it flow away OK? do the levels in manholes/drains rise nearly to the top?

has the building had any extensions added? are there any ropey underground connections?

It might also be fat, roots or silt causing the partial blockage - mostly curable - arguably DIY-able.

If yes - or you are worries - A CCTV survey might be a good idea - I wish we had one when we bought. I'm inherited a mis-configured connection from an extension that promotes blockages - esp. when the previous occupants flushed a million wet-wipes down the loos! We wouldn't have pulled out of the purchase - but perhaps tried to negotiate a discount to rectify the mis-alignment. It's no biggie, I can manage the situation until I get round to realigning it (or paying someone to do it for me!)

can you live with finding the problem once you move in? If the drains were to block and the manholes surcharge - where would the foul water go? Back into the property? your garden? or flow down the street to the nearest surface water drain? If it;s not classed as a private sewer - you might be able to get the water company to fix it. (see this diagram for details)


I personally wouldn't pull-out because of this, but a CCTV survey / drain inspection might give the the information you need to make a better decision on ignore or negotiate discount or pull-out.

 

[masamune]

Thank you all for the very useful replies.

A lot of my concerns have been addressed after my visit to the property again.

We can forget about the mains pipe, the seller changed it to plastic years ago so there is no lead there and the pressure from the mains is pretty good.

My plumber had a look at the drains and said it is all good and clear. That doesn't mean we know what's happening below but at least it's not obviously blocked.

The boiler was fitted by the owner as it is written on the certificate, apparently he was a gas safe registered plumber a few years back. Overall the plumbing and heating looks good and looked after. I tested the heating as well, all works fine, a little unfortunate to test at such hot weather

The main focus now is the shower pressure and the pump system. They will need to do some plumbing and I am waiting on costs, plus the pump installation. Someone mentioned that I could change the boiler to combi and remove the cylinder and tank for about £2500 and the job would take around 3 days. It is tempting as I find the vented system a little complicated but it's a significant job and cost, had the seller not fitted a new boiler recently I would probably consider changing and losing the cylinder from the bedroom.

I may still get a gas engineer to inspect the property to be on the safe side before moving in, but the builders, electrician and plumber who came along said the place is ok.

p.s ree thanks for the feedback, the money that will come out of my pocket is not mickey mouse I'm afraid

 

[ree]

The mickey mouse remark was referring to the context of a house sale - nothing to do with the money in your pocket.

You complain about the money in your pocket, and in the next breath you wish to do a £2500 plumbing change out because you "find the vented system a little complicated"?

The "electrician and the plumber said the place is OK" - no mention of an electrical condition report, or a gas safe report?

 

[Justin Passing]

A boiler chosen by a Gas Safe guy should be a decent one. Generally "heat only" bolers last longer than Combis.
(Depends what it is though - if it's an Ideal Icos, throw it away fast...)
If you want another shower, you could change the Vented cylinder for an unvented one, (which loses you your loft tank) and get better flow and pressure than you would from a combi, with no pump. Much better - pipe sizes permitting.
Price should be a lot less than £2500.
A Gas Safety Record ( like a Landlord's Certificate) is basic safety only, like "Is there a gas/fumes leak?" and "Is the boiler burning the right amount of gas?" and not a lot more. Often/usually the front cover won't even come off the boiler. It's NOT a service and there's no general agreement about detail of what's done. Reports/gas certificates aren't routinely issued in non-rented properties, even when work is carried out.

Suggest you get a Gas Safe person to service the boiler ( he should check the Flue Gas Analysis to check it's working efficiently - not required for a GSRecord). Also ask him for a quote for a conversion to an Unvented cylinder - for which he has to be qualified.

 

[masamune]

The boiler is a Worcester 24i Greenstar and I have heard they are really good. I don't have a very good grasp of the hot water/heating vented system. I understand the boiler exchanger works for both the heating and the hot water? Or is that not the case?

Coming from combi boilers I am used to hot water on demand, but with the cylinder I understand this not to be the case. So how does the hot water work if the cylinder empties, do you have to wait for it to heat up or does it replace hot water constantly?

The cylinder at the property has also got a heating element to use electricity in case the boiler is down. Reads "indirect cylinder", 1500mm x 300mm RM cylinders.

The plumber mentioned something about installing megaflow. Is that the unvented system you described? Is it worth getting a quote for an unvented system at this point and how messy is the conversion job? What family sizes each system works best for?

Sorry for flooding (pun intended you with questions, I am doing a little read up on them and I understand the unvented system requires frequent servicing and is more prone to issues.

Any advice, suggestions on what to go with would be much appreciated

 

[Justin Passing]

A full answer would be pages long . If you get a service, or a quote, you can ask someone on site.
Briefly you can take HW out of a cylinder at the rate the pump or the mains (if unvented) will push it at. A 24kW combi only lets you have it slowly - too slowly for 2 showers. Even big combis struggle, because of pipework usually.
You probably know how loudly the person in the shower screams when someone else opens any tap, if you have a combi. You want a duet?

You must have a skinny cupboard for the 300 diameter cylinder though, so standard Unventeds won't fit.

"Megaflo" is the best known make of Unvented cylinder - not necessarily the best. You quoter should tell you about expansion vessels etc.
They might need a little inspection/maintenance from time to time but not much, and it's worth it. Should be annual but most don't get touched.

Worcester 24i Greenstar and I have heard they are really good

I wouldn't choose one but they're OK. At least their faults are well known.

 

[masamune]

You must have a skinny cupboard for the 300 diameter cylinder though, so standard Unventeds won't fit.

"Megaflo" is the best known make of Unvented cylinder - not necessarily the best. You quoter should tell you about expansion vessels etc.
They might need a little inspection/maintenance from time to time but not much, and it's worth it. Should be annual but most don't get touched.

Thank you, I think the cupboard is around 500mm deep...most unvented cylinders are around 500+, so I guess it won't fit

I think the litres don't matter because diameter is fixed. Any particular brand to go with? I read that you can place unvented cyls anywhere, can I then move it in the loft if it doesn't fit in the airing cupboard?

And what would be the cost if I wanted to fit an unvented and expansion vessel for one/two bathrooms?

 

[Justin Passing]

Get three surveys/quotes.
You need good flow from the mains AND good pressure so it'll need to be measured.

Loft is possible but needs good support, light, insulation, access, power for the immersion heater. Your heating system would have to be pressurised - it may be already, if not it's usually easy to make it so. (Or have a high header tank).
Remember there will be 5 x 22mm pipes going to it and the discharge has to go somewhere correct.
Plumbers who do it have to be qualified specifically so they charge extra.
Capacity depends on both your requirements for baths and showers, and the flow rate. You will use more water if the flow is better.
150- 170 litres probably.
Fitted perhaps £1500 but with a wide variation on that.

 

[masamune]

Thanks for the feedback and the pricing, it sounds feasible if there are no other issues. Space remains an issue and as I though the loft would be cumbersome if you need to inspect the cylinder and it's plumbing.

I'm pretty sure the pressure is good. The sink cold tap was connected to the mains and the pressure was stronger than anything I have used before. I will ask three quotes as you suggested.

The only problem is that I will have to decide if I go ahead with this before doing the pump for the bathroom (will post another thread for the bathroom quote)