Builder telling me max 6 downlights on a switch

Hi, sorry if this has been answered elsewhere (I've tried to search for an answer but can't find anything concrete).

I'm moving into a new build later in the year, and I am currently running through the options with the developer. The kitchen/dining area is 6.6m x 3.5m, and we've seen a showhome of the same type that had 17 downlighters and a pendant in this space, with 2 switches for the downlighters (9 on 1, 8 on the other) and 1 for the pendant.

When we asked if we could have the same, we were told that they are only now allowed to place 6 downlights on a switch. Is this a new building regulation? Our sales guy just says "thats how it is". With the kitchen/dining area having two entrances, it feels as though we're going to have walls covered in switches. I believe the lights will be LEDs.

Also, our living room is 7.1m x 3.84m, and the wife doesn't want a ceiling in there that looks like a runway, and has asked if we can get away with less downlights in this room. We dont know anything about the lights they use other than the belief that they are LEDs, so I understand that its a vague question, but could we get away with 12 lights in there in 3 rows of 4 and not have it look too dark when they're all on at night?

Again, apologies that the above seems so vague, but we dont know the correct questions to ask!

pez

alexpez said:

... we've seen a showhome of the same type that had 17 downlighters and a pendant in this space, with 2 switches for the downlighters (9 on 1, 8 on the other) and 1 for the pendant. ... when we asked if we could have the same, we were told that they are only now allowed to place 6 downlights on a switch. Is this a new building regulation? Our sales guy just says "thats how it is". With the kitchen/dining area having two entrances, it feels as though we're going to have walls covered in switches. I believe the lights will be LEDs.

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That's nonsense - there is no such regulation. If we're talking about 230V LEDs, then you could literally have hundreds connected to one switch without overloading it (or the circuit). If they are 12V LEDs (hence requiring power supplies/drivers/'transformers') there may possibly be an issue as regards how many lights can be driven by one 'transformer'/driver (so you might possibly need more than one of those), but that's nothing to do with the switches, or number of switches.

Someone is bound to point out that having umpteen downlights is perhaps not the most efficient way of illuminating a room!

Kind Regards, John

Builder is talking BS.

A modern LED down light will draw a max of 10w, a light switch is rated at 10 amp.

10 amp x 230v = 2300 or 230 x 10w fittings

Dimmer switches when using dim allowed LED have to be suitable for the total lighting group load, so say you end up with 10 fittings at 10w you would need a dimmer that copes with 100w load.

It's your choice your buying and paying for what you want. If you do have a high volume of fittings it does make sense to zone the lamps with a multiple switch.

Down lights are rubbish in main living areas, what's wrong with a central lamp a few up lighters and a couple of base or floor lamps.

As said there is really no limit you can have it set out like a planetarium if you like with electrical regulations. Likely you will have the GU10 L1 fitted to comply with building regulations which force the builder on a new build to fit lamps which will not take incandescent bulbs. There is a dimple in the base of some GU10 bulbs which lines up with a spike in the holder so you can't fit tungsten lamps.

This also means you can't fit cheap LED lamps either. Part L of building regulations covers the regulations and L1A for new dwellings in England but the so called approved documents say very little about how energy saving is to be achieved and it is possible there is a maximum amount of light output from a single switch some where in the building regulations.

Some of the requirements are silly it still says 150W maximum for outside lamp without planning permission and has not caught up with LED lamps and the move to lumen.

As electricians we brush into building regulations but there are so many which can affect us and knowing them all is near impossible. Simple fitting a fan in a bathroom can depend on fuel types of heating for example.

So as with electrical regulations unless some one quotes the regulation numbers it's hard to say the regulation does not exist.

Down lighter need to reflect light off light surfaces and show house with white walls and carpet may look good. But who wants a white carpet and replace it with dark colours and they become useless. As pods aimed at white walls they can work in the same way as wall lights aimed up at a white ceiling but I would not use spot lights as main lights in my house. As reading lamps in bed they are very good. But living room the bulbs are in a fitting which comes down from the ceiling and aims the bulbs at the white ceiling giving a good all round light from two fittings. Large living room has 30 watt of LED lights which is ample. But you will not light same room with 30 watt of down lighters.

Chri5 said:

Builder is talking BS.

A modern LED down light will draw a max of 10w, a light switch is rated at 10 amp.

10 amp x 230v = 2300 or 230 x 10w fittings

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So are you, but a different type of BS. LED down lights do not run at unity power factor so will draw considerably more current than you suggest. Lighting circuits are normally on a 6amp MCB so no way could supply 2300 watts even at unity PF. Not all light switches are rated at 10 amps either.

JohnW2 said:

That's nonsense - there is no such regulation. If we're talking about 230V LEDs, then you could literally have hundreds connected to one switch without overloading it (or the circuit). If they are 12V LEDs (hence requiring power supplies/drivers/'transformers') there may possibly be an issue as regards how many lights can be driven by one 'transformer'/driver (so you might possibly need more than one of those), but that's nothing to do with the switches, or number of switches.

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I assume you are telling the OP that his views are nonsense because as far as I can see the OP alone has raised the issue of the building regulations.

Chri5 said:

Builder is talking BS.

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I would also assume that the OP has spoken to the sales staff rather than the builder and they will be following the instructions of the lighting designer.

I would hazard to guess that, as is often the case with new builds, the show house is built first and then 'things move on'. Not necessarily because of regulation but sometimes because of design changes or customer feedback.

Some developers do give you the option normally before first fix to alter the lighting arrangements, at a price. Some do not. Perhaps this build has passed first fix or such arrangement is not allowed with this company.

Given the type of room in question a long kitchen/diner it would seem eminently sensible to have a number of lighting options for different parts of the room as a whole or even different switching/lighting options within the kitchen area alone. The more switches the greater the control.

riveralt said:

JohnW2 said:

That's nonsense - there is no such regulation. .....

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I assume you are telling the OP that his views are nonsense because as far as I can see the OP alone has raised the issue of the building regulations.

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Of course not - it is surely obvious that I was referring to what the OP had been told ("we were told that they are only now allowed to place 6 downlights on a switch.") about which the OP asked "Is this a new building regulation?".

You are, of course, right in what you go on to say about the "not allowed" possibly relating to the developer's term/practices (at least, unless 'for a price'), but I feel pretty sure from the wording of his initial post that the OP was seeking to ascertain whether there was any regulatory restriction underlying what he had been told.

Kind Regards, John

winston1 said:

So are you, but a different type of BS. LED down lights do not run at unity power factor so will draw considerably more current than you suggest. Lighting circuits are normally on a 6amp MCB so no way could supply 2300 watts even at unity PF. Not all light switches are rated at 10 amps either.

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Such details (with which I'm not disagreeing) aside, I presume you do not see any (electrical) problem with just 17 (not 230) LED downlights being controlled by a single switch (which will be rated at least 6A) and run from a 6A lighting circuit (which is what matters to the OP).

Kind Regards, John

Even if they refuse to budge from this position, it's simple enough to just add them all to the same switch.

Annoying that you'd have to go out and try and find a matching switch though - unless they use a common brand

JohnW2 said:

winston1 said:

So are you, but a different type of BS. LED down lights do not run at unity power factor so will draw considerably more current than you suggest. Lighting circuits are normally on a 6amp MCB so no way could supply 2300 watts even at unity PF. Not all light switches are rated at 10 amps either.

Click to expand...

Such details (with which I'm not disagreeing) aside, I presume you do not see any (electrical) problem with just 17 (not 230) LED downlights being controlled by a single switch (which will be rated at least 6A) and run from a 6A lighting circuit (which is what matters to the OP).

Kind Regards, John

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Indeed, no problem with 17.

Winston accusing someone of talking BS.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black

winston1 said:

Chri5 said:

Builder is talking BS.

A modern LED down light will draw a max of 10w, a light switch is rated at 10 amp.

10 amp x 230v = 2300 or 230 x 10w fittings

Click to expand...

So are you, but a different type of BS. LED down lights do not run at unity power factor so will draw considerably more current than you suggest. Lighting circuits are normally on a 6amp MCB so no way could supply 2300 watts even at unity PF. Not all light switches are rated at 10 amps either.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that useful fact correction, shame I was using hypothetical examples.

I use 10 amp mcbs for lighting. Posh clients in North London still love a sweep of 16 bulbs candelabras around, amazingly they can afford to run light fittings with 16 x 40w lamps, just three of those, a breakfast room and a large kitchen adorned with GU10's breaks the 6a rating you suggest is standard for lighting finals.
As for switches, since MK are the standard, they are rated at 10 amp.

Right back on topic, LED 230v units have a PF of??? (0.9 ).

So to avoid the slur of being called a BS'er (thanks for that)

10 amp light final, 10 amp MK SP switch, PF 0.9 about 200 LED lamps.

Winston is that OK for you?

I personally see no problem with 17 lamps, but there is always the jobs worth. We are told to consider every lamp as 60W which today is daft but 17 x 60 = 4.43A so still within the limits for even a 5A switch.

Clearly you will actually use a lot less. We are also told 16A maximum for lighting circuit, but many ceiling roses and light switches are only rated 6A so in real terms 6A maximum for lights.

Each LED lamp has between 1 and 9 LED's in a cluster so one single lamp can have 9 bulbs in fact with some even more than that so I have a 0.58W GU10 LED lamp with 9 bulbs within it. Clearly to make any rule limiting number of bulbs would be daft.

Where the problem arises is the power being used. However I have seen kits sold with 10 x 10W tungsten lamps (GU5.3) all powered from a single 100W electronic transformer there was nothing to stop the owner replacing them with 35W bulbs, but there is no rule broken by fitting them. The same must be true for 5W LED's (GU10) there is nothing to stop the owner swapping for a 50W tungsten unless L1 type, it is up to the owner to realise this would cause massive problems.

But many house builders use semi-skilled labour, and anything deviating from the standard plan means they have to use skilled labour instead. So to add an extra socket costs £100 this has always been the case. Even in 1980 when my house was built an extra socket was £25.

So in real terms it's a case of move in then alter to what you want. Yes daft, but that's just the way it is. After moving in first job was lift the floor boards and fit central heating and extra sockets that's just the way it is. Yes 1980 and no central heating as standard. One single gas fire to heat whole house we were allowed £25 towards the fire of our choosing, but had to be suitable for a flue brick.