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Advice on external render beading

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Porker

from United Kingdom

Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 230
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:50 am Reply with quote

Hi,

I have had some building work done which involved moving my back door and putting a window where the door was. The house is rendered with a smooth finish and the openings were cleanly made with a disk cutter.

What I would like to know is what sort of render bead you would recommend (plastic, Stainless??) and how exactly I can redo the corners. Do I get stop beading and put the stop flush with external wall or do I need to cut back some more of the external so that a proper corner bead can be used?

I'm not sure how clear my explanation is but if you look at the door or window opening you can see a clean cut through the render then the brick and I need to render this return. Also I have a concrete lintel over the door. How would you fix mesh to this for rendering - drill and screw?
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clout stench

from Azerbaijan

Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Azerbaijan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:03 pm Reply with quote

I think I know what you mean, but I would recommend using uPVC cladding for the returns.

Trying to make good smooth render so that no join is visible is almost impossible but if you don't mind this then cut back as you suggested and use stainless angle beads. Stick up with render which will easily hold the vertical beads in place but you can support the horizontal bead on to the lintel over night until the render has set sufficiently.

Another alternative would be to try to feather or round the returns to the existing edge!!

Hopefully someone else may know better or have some prior experience.

Good luck.
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corrie

from United Kingdom

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 108
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:18 pm Reply with quote

Job should be able to be done with an Aris stick used inside and outside Ingoe or Jamb when mortar is still permeable. Doing it that way is a job for an old fashioned Roughcaster though. You are basically putting a timber batten(aris stick) on the ouside wall to form the ingoe and then the stick goes on the ingoe to fair face the wall. We call it a Double Aris.

Alex
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Porker

from United Kingdom

Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 230
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:19 am Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies guys. Both giving useful advice. I think maybe with what I have a combination of uPVC cladding on the shallower returns and using the aris stick method would work well. i had not considered either.
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roughcaster

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:44 pm Reply with quote

Spot on Corrie,
Most if not all external corners/reveals in render/roughcast etc,would not be formed using corner beading. As you said they would be formed first with timber battens around the outside edge of the reveal, and with the roughcast,allowed to set. The following day, the timber would be removed and the face of the wall would be roughcasted. With render, you can return the reveals/soffits, and the front of the rendered wall whilst the render is still workable, to give 90 degree wet corners, this time using the timber batten as you go. The return angle would then be slightly bull nosed or pencil rounded with a float to give you the finished job. Before corner beading came in, all plastered/cement corners inside a building and rendered corners outside were formed this way. It requires skill, and a good knowledge of the materials you are using. If you get it wrong, and pull the batten away too flat, instead of sliding it away at an angle and upwards,you will end up pulling all the mortar off the corner and have to start again. There's a lot to be said for corner beads, and I use them inside most the time, but it's nice also to be able to do it the way it was, and well worth learning... Micilin would know all about this too. icon_wink.gif

Roughcaster.
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Micilin

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:22 pm Reply with quote

roughcaster wrote:
Micilin would know all about this too. icon_wink.gif
.





icon_smile.gif Maybe we are just too tight to buy beads!!

IMHO the only place where a bead is the best option outside is for the lead on a chimney or the flashing on a porch etc. That said, most jobs now on site specify beading, but I prefer still not to use them if I can help it.

One advantage is that if something knocks the corner, it only makes a localised chip whcih is easy to repair compared to a bent bead, which often blows above and below the damage. Also , the building is sealed up properly without a bead breaking the seal.

For a high elevation, with a long arris, say five or six metres, it is a lot easier to straighten a batten than stick a bead on and plumb it both ways.

If you have nice timbers, chamfered where required and a bit of mould oil, you can use them time and time again. You can set up drips, patent reveals, quoins, ashlar, all kinds of feature much more easily and it looks better too if you ask me.

When I started my time with my old man, we used to pull all the external angles skimming inside with an external angle tool or twitcher, having floated the walls to timber battens and returning them. Too much work nowa days instead of beads, but knowing how to do it came in handy in later years doing tanking and damproofing - where beads are not allowed in the render.

Sorry, got carried away - now where did I leave my slippers..........
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noseall

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:29 pm Reply with quote

Micilin wrote:
roughcaster wrote:
Micilin would know all about this too. icon_wink.gif
.





icon_smile.gif Maybe we are just too tight to buy beads!!

IMHO the only place where a bead is the best option outside is for the lead on a chimney or the flashing on a porch etc. That said, most jobs now on site specify beading, but I prefer still not to use them if I can help it.

One advantage is that if something knocks the corner, it only makes a localised chip whcih is easy to repair compared to a bent bead, which often blows above and below the damage. Also , the building is sealed up properly without a bead breaking the seal.

For a high elevation, with a long arris, say five or six metres, it is a lot easier to straighten a batten than stick a bead on and plumb it both ways.

If you have nice timbers, chamfered where required and a bit of mould oil, you can use them time and time again. You can set up drips, patent reveals, quoins, ashlar, all kinds of feature much more easily and it looks better too if you ask me.

When I started my time with my old man, we used to pull all the external angles skimming inside with an external angle tool or twitcher, having floated the walls to timber battens and returning them. Too much work nowa days instead of beads, but knowing how to do it came in handy in later years doing tanking and damproofing - where beads are not allowed in the render.

Sorry, got carried away - now where did I leave my slippers..........


wow, i would love to be able to render to the standard of you guys, Roughcaster and Corrie included.

it astonishes me when some kid who has skimmed a few plasterboards thinks he has the skill to render the outside of a house. icon_rolleyes.gif

RESPECT. icon_wink.gif
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marshman

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:58 pm Reply with quote

[quote="Micilin";
When I started my time with my old man, we used to pull all the external angles skimming inside with an external angle tool or twitcher, having floated the walls to timber battens and returning them.
[/quote]

Thats how I was taught, those were the day's, and I still like to do it that way now. icon_smile.gif
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roughcaster

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:48 am Reply with quote

Another old favourite for forming "strong" plastered external corners before beading came in, was Keene's Cement. I remember working in Haslar Royal Naval Hospital, (as was) Gosport, Hants. I was working for a small building firm from Fareham, J.R. Basford & Sons where I served my time. We did a lot of maintainance work in Haslar, for the MPBW,(as was) and I remember working alongside the old plasterers, doing up the external corners in some of the corridors. These corridors had trollies for the patients, going up and down, and we had to form extra large rounded bullnoses on these externals to save them from being damaged by the trollies. We would form them with Keene's Cement, which was a very hard plaster, (I think it was pinkish in colour). I just about remember it, but anyway,I doubt if you would still get it nowadays.

Roughcaster.
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corrie

from United Kingdom

Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 108
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:55 pm Reply with quote

noseall wrote:
Micilin wrote:
roughcaster wrote:
Micilin would know all about this too. icon_wink.gif
.





icon_smile.gif Maybe we are just too tight to buy beads!!

IMHO the only place where a bead is the best option outside is for the lead on a chimney or the flashing on a porch etc. That said, most jobs now on site specify beading, but I prefer still not to use them if I can help it.

One advantage is that if something knocks the corner, it only makes a localised chip whcih is easy to repair compared to a bent bead, which often blows above and below the damage. Also , the building is sealed up properly without a bead breaking the seal.

For a high elevation, with a long arris, say five or six metres, it is a lot easier to straighten a batten than stick a bead on and plumb it both ways.

If you have nice timbers, chamfered where required and a bit of mould oil, you can use them time and time again. You can set up drips, patent reveals, quoins, ashlar, all kinds of feature much more easily and it looks better too if you ask me.

When I started my time with my old man, we used to pull all the external angles skimming inside with an external angle tool or twitcher, having floated the walls to timber battens and returning them. Too much work nowa days instead of beads, but knowing how to do it came in handy in later years doing tanking and damproofing - where beads are not allowed in the render.

Sorry, got carried away - now where did I leave my slippers..........


wow, i would love to be able to render to the standard of you guys, Roughcaster and Corrie included.

it astonishes me when some kid who has skimmed a few plasterboards thinks he has the skill to render the outside of a house. icon_rolleyes.gif

RESPECT. icon_wink.gif



Why thank you kind sir icon_lol.gif

I am just thrilled to hear of guys who like me still know and use an Aris Stick icon_lol.gif I don`t think there is anything worse looking than that horrible tell tale line of a plastic bead on a Roughcast Corner. Thing is .........all these external beads came in with the advent of Polymer Cement didn`t they? But now you see Roughcasters doing traditional mortar Wetcast and they still use the beads icon_eek.gif .

Windows etc are normally "hung" as we call it. Ingoe is screeded on outside and damp stick is offered plumb with proper margin. Stick can be left to "hang" as face of ingoe is formed. Once straight and smooth the stick is slid up and away. When material takes up........offer stick again and quick draw with wooden or plastic float and sponge finish .......done . Window soffit is the same but with a longer stick 2/3rds the width of window head......it will hang itself with practice. We kept all our good sticks in different sizes. On a site a few months ago one of the labourers threw my sticks away while cleaning up. When I cracked up he said they were only bits of wood icon_eek.gif icon_eek.gif icon_lol.gif

Alex
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roughcaster

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:13 pm Reply with quote

I remember years ago having to hold an accurately plumbed straight- edge on the corner of a wall for a plasterer, of the old school. "Now hold it there, put your foot against the bottom of the stick, and don't move it" he said, and off he went. I did hold it there, and I didn't move it, until about ten minutes later, when I realised the joke was on me.They'd all gone for their tea break..... The things you don't forget eh!!icon_rolleyes.gif

Roughcaster.
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roughcaster

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:47 pm Reply with quote

I make window guages regularly for ingoes and soffits for both inside and outside.They give a nice neat, straight margin all around the frame. They take a minute to make,but can save a lot of time and there's no guesswork involved in getting a straight looking finish around the inside of the window.

Roughcaster.
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marshman

from United Kingdom

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:11 pm Reply with quote

I have a stainless triangle square with a slot cut 20mm in on one side, ( slot about 150mm long ) (square is 300mm)
this has a small coach bolt that fit the slot, on the other side is a piece of 2mm flat bar that has a 100mm slott,
the bolt past through this and has a butterfly nut that tightens over a washer to hold the two pieces together,
fully adjustable and very easy to set for any reveal, and to set up all the reveals.
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roughcaster

from United Kingdom

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:47 pm Reply with quote

Sounds good that Marshman, and as you say it can be adjusted to suit each individual set of reveals. Where did you get that from, or did you make it? I would be interested in getting one. I make my ones up as required out of the usual piece of timber with a small nail in the end that runs around the window/door-frame. Hi-tec eh, icon_rolleyes.gif Cheers Marshy'

Roughcaster.
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marshman

from United Kingdom

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:29 am Reply with quote

back in the 70's the first plaster I laboured for had one, then I went with another plaster and served my time, met new friends and one worked
in a machine shop using a laser cutter to cut stainless sheet, I drew him a sketch, told him what I wanted and gave him a little
coach bolt and butterfly nut, one dinner time he cut the bits for me.

I still use a bit of skirting and a oval or panel pin to rule off mostly but the square does make setting all window and door returns the same, easy.

shame there is an easy way to add a sketch on here.
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