Garage conversion advise

mquinton1980 · 6 Dec 2010

Hi all

I wonder if you guys can advise me on something.

I'm thinkin about having my integral garage converted into a new kitchen in march/april and I have had a few builders quote me on the work.

Some suggested dot/dab external wall, some suggested batton/board the external wall but today when I spoke to building control over the phone they suggested that it's unlikely that the external integral garage wall has an cavity insulation therefore I would need 50mm or so Celotex and then plasterboard. Why did none of the builders mention this?

I don't want to accept a quote from someone and have a nasty suprise when Building Control request insulation behind the plasterboard which will all of a sudden lead to extra costs not included within the quote.

Do any of you have any suggestions as to how you would finish the wall, i'm not a massive fan of dot/dab and it's going to be the wall holding all the kitchen units.

I'm also assuming that new footings will need to be dug for the wall/window taking place of the garage door.

I have been quoted £4500 for all the internal work inc electrics and plumbing however the same person quoted £2480 to block up the garage door including window and materials which to me seems very high. Is that about right?

Thanks

Mark

noseall · 6 Dec 2010

mquinton1980 said:
I don't want to accept a quote from someone and have a nasty suprise when Building Control request insulation behind the plasterboard which will all of a sudden lead to extra costs not included within the quote.

My advice to you would be to get a designer to do you a b'regs drawing, then you and all the builders quoting will be reading from the same sheet, as it were.

Did you have an identical schedule of works for each builder to take away with them?

If not, how could you possibly compare quotes?

Richard C · 6 Dec 2010

mquinton1980 said:
when I spoke to building control over the phone they suggested that it's unlikely that the external integral garage wall has an cavity insulation therefore I would need 50mm or so Celotex and then plasterboard. Why did none of the builders mention this?

A reputable builder should inform you of Building Regulations, give advice on what you need to do to comply with them, give you a quote to reflect what needs doing & provide you with a BR compliant completion certificate. Unfortunately the ultimately responsibility to comply with BR’s still lies with the property owner. Many cowboys don’t know or just don't care about legislation or regulations your building work must comply with, then others won’t tell you for fear they won’t be competitive on their price; in the end they just want your cash & will leave you to sort out the problems you will undoubtedly experience as a result, often not until you come to sell up.

As noseall suggested, you need to either investigate what’s required yourself & provide a definitive specification which builders are required to quote to or employ someone with experience who can, probably the best option if your inexperienced. You made that call to LABC & it’s essential if you want to avoid problems; I think you’ve had a lucky escape.

mquinton1980 · 6 Dec 2010

Thanks guys

I must admit the last guy who took a look at the garage said it would be a good idea to get plans done. In all honesty I was hoping to avoid this as it's an additional cost I could do without. Also much of the stuff i've seen on the net seems to suggest just a building notice is required with not necessarily any plans.

It's only really the insulation side of things I was concerned about, to be sure i may just get the wall injected with cavity wall insulation if there is none already present. That way i'm not losing any internal wall space by adding insulation behind the plasterboard.

Does anyone know how much a simple building regs plan and schedule would cost?

Thanks guys

Mark

^woody^ · 6 Dec 2010

I would not bother with plans for this type of work. Use a building notice

When you get quotes, insist that the quotes are based on "all work to current building regulations" and this or similar statement be printed in the quote.That way you get no suprises

Also ask for a fully itemised quote

You need to check whether injecting any current cavity wall will meet current b/regs, as you may also have to insulate the wall internally

Richard C · 6 Dec 2010

mquinton1980 said:
much of the stuff i've seen on the net seems to suggest just a building notice is required with not necessarily any plans.

The Building Notice route is perfectly OK for such a small project but your still going to need a specification for your builders to quote like for like to & have some idea of what you need to do comply with BR’s (or at least someone on your side does) & what your going to get in order not to get ripped off; & it’s not just thermal insulation in the walls you need to comply with!

A Building Notice fee is dependant upon the project, the fee for a garage conversion is going to be around £250 - £300 but check with your LABC.

mquinton1980 · 7 Dec 2010

Thanks again guys

It may be worth getting the builders to automatically quote for worst case scenario (ie. 50mm celotex behind plasterboard)

Can I ask what might seem a daft question. My external wall has a boiler and fuse box on the wall. I am leaving these in situ and will be housing them in the kitchen wall cupboards. Obviously celotex/plasterboard will be only going around them, hence the areas behind the boiler/fuse box will not be insulated. Is this ok?

Is it also ok for the celotex to be positioned between battens? I thought i read somewhere about it needing to be a continuous sheet of insulation?

Thanks

Mark

freddiemercurystwin · 7 Dec 2010

Your builder will know the best way of achieving Building Regs compliance and the umpteen other possible variations, that’s why you’ve opted for doing it on a Notice to save yourself a few quid!!!

Richard C · 7 Dec 2010

mquinton1980 said:
Obviously celotex/plasterboard will be only going around them, hence the areas behind the boiler/fuse box will not be insulated. Is this ok?

Hardly a proper job & not what I’d do. You will have problems if you need to access the consumer unit for replacement/additional circuits & if you really do still have a fuse box you may well find yourself having to replace that anyway! Similar for boiler maintenance as well + surrounding the boiler casing with insulation may well have detrimental affect on the boiler operation as well as possibly contravening regulations; it almost certainly won’t be in accordance with the boiler manufacturers installation instructions.

mquinton1980 said:
Is it also ok for the celotex to be positioned between battens? I thought i read somewhere about it needing to be a continuous sheet of insulation?

Have a look here;
http://www.celotex.co.uk/Applications/Conversions/Garage-conversions

you will need to register to download the data sheet.

mquinton1980 · 7 Dec 2010

I completely appreciate that in an ideal world I would relocated the boiler but then we are talking about a massive increase in funds.

I am replacing the fuse box in the coming months ahead of the garage conversion, maybe I could mount it somehow to the same depth of the new celotex etc.

Or just opt for cavity fill insulation and then I don't have to worry about the celotex depth on the inside. Spoke to BCO today who said cavity wall insulation whilst possibly not quite meeting the required U value would be deemed acceptable due to guidance that allows this and he is willing to put that in writing.

Thanks

Mark

noseall · 7 Dec 2010

^woody^ said:
When you get quotes, insist that the quotes are based on "all work to current building regulations" and this or similar statement be printed in the quote.That way you get no suprises

Whilst it is very noble of you to assume that all builders are blessed with the latest reg's knowledge, unfortunately many are not.
For example the TRADA booklet has recently been updated and has caught out an architect i know.

The simplest way is to provide the builder with what is required and ask him to quote for it.

^woody^ · 7 Dec 2010

As a client, I would want to employ someone who knows what to do and not rely on me sorting stuff out or me worrying about if the builder knows what to do or not

I would want to pass the risk onto the builder and pay whatever it costs for that

So I would ask the builder to build to the latest regs and expect him to either know or to find out

I don't think it is too much to ask

However, if I was a client who knew a fair bit about building, then I would provide him with a comprehensive specification, and then I would assume the risk and then pay the builder less for him not having to worry about thinking or knowing the latest regulations

The OP has to decide who he wants to do the thinking and take on the risk and if he wants to pay extra for that or not

Richard C · 7 Dec 2010

noseall said:
The simplest way is to provide the builder with what is required and ask him to quote for it.

Totally agree. This is very small beer & simply asking a builder (or any trade) to quote to “the latest Regs” is not good enough. If you (or someone on your behalf) don’t know what the regs are, how on earth are you ever going to check or know if what he's quoted is correct? I know it seems unbelievable but jobbing builders have been known to lie; but I’m sure they don’t mean to!

You will only find out when LABC refuse to sign off your building work & then it may be too late cos you handed over too much cash to keep him interested; he will simply scarper & leave you to either pick up the pieces or sue him & then he will liquidate anyway!

^woody^ · 7 Dec 2010

Its the same as if I take my car to a garage and ask the mechanic to fix it. I don't know anything about cars (the mechanic is the expert) and I don't expect to have to trawl the internet to find out and then tell the mechanic what to do.

I want to pay him for his skill and knowledge and expect him to know what to do

Whether the mechanic (or the builder) is competent, does a good job, or runs off with my money is a completely separate issue

The point is, the OP is a layperson and is paying for a service - the service of an expert, and so he can rightly assume (and specify) that the expert does the work to any relevant standards

The OP employs a builder on the basis that his work meets current b/regs. As the work is inspected, it either passes or fails. If it fails the builder is contractually obligated to correct it. Once it is all done and passed, the builder gets paid

What on earth is difficult about that?

If the OP does not specify work to current regulations, then the big risk is that the builder comes back with a lame excuse that "the inspector wants me to do more insulating and I never priced for that so you have to pay me lots more money"

Of course there is an inherent obligation and an implicit term in the contract (whether written or verbal) that the builder will build to current regs in any case. However, by actually specifying it, it removes any doubt

mquinton1980 · 7 Dec 2010

Thanks for all your thoughts.

I think the general consensus seems to be that it's a mindfield out there and do some research of you own..hence why i'm on here.

Do any of you guys know whether it is acceptable under the regs to leave the boiler/fusebox on the old block wall and insulate/board or just board (depending on whether i use cavity or celotex insulation) the finished wall around them both? I fully accept it's ideal but for one I can't afford to relocate the boiler. I would leave enough breathing space around the boiler.

I guess the fuse box wouldn't be too difficult to take off the block wall and relocate on the new finished interior wall face but i'm no expert.

Thanks again for all the help.

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Garage conversion advise

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