DP fusing

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I have just modified an ancient valve amplifier to remove the DP fusing and it set me wondering - why did anybody ever think that double pole fusing was a good idea? I know it was almost standard practice in the past, but can't understand why. Can anyone shed any light on this?

thanks

Paul
 
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I have just modified an ancient valve amplifier to remove the DP fusing and it set me wondering - why did anybody ever think that double pole fusing was a good idea? I know it was almost standard practice in the past, but can't understand why. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Interesting question. As you say, in the past it was almost standard for fusing (when present) of the incoming mains supply within equipment to be DP; dual fuse holders were everywhere - and, indeed, I still have some (unused) 1960s equipment which has them. A partial answer might be the fact that, at least if you go back far enough, the equipment may have had a 2-core supply cable and a reversible 2-pin plug - in which case DP fusing may have been perceived as a way of ensuring there was a fuse in the L supply (whatever advantage that was perceived to offer! - protection against L-E faults, perhaps). However, that didn't ater the fact that, whatever the polarity of the supply, DP fusing left open the very real possibility that only the N one would blow, leading to a dangerous situation.

Perhaps the more likely explanation was that in those days, there was little consideration of risk to persons, so that the fusing was probably perceived primarily as a means of protecting cable and equipment, rather than persons - in which case maybe DP fusing was thought of a 'belt and braces' approach to equipment protection, with little consideration of risk to persons?

Kind Regards, John.
 
The N was not always reliable tied to Earth - this is still the case in many European countries which use DP MCBs and non-polarised plugs and sockets.
 
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i have never really thought about this until now, and i have just checked my 2 1960's Vox AC30 valve amps and sure enough they are DP fused! however it looks like a mod and not factory :confused:

Now you got me thinking,
 
The N was not always reliable tied to Earth - this is still the case in many European countries which use DP MCBs and non-polarised plugs and sockets.
That's a good reason to have DP switching (which most of the DP fused 1960s gear of mine did have) or MCBs, but DP fusing still presents a serious potential hazard (just as would having separate SP MCBs in L and N). Even if the N is not reliably tied to earth, the L is even less likely to be :)

Kind Regards, John.
 
I can see why dp fusing might be used in equipment where polarity was uncertain, but can't understand why it was used in cutouts and fuseboxes in fixed installations. Did we ever have supplies that weren't referenced to earth (IT)? I know in my area the original electricity supply was DC, so I have no idea how that was distributed.

TWO Vox AC30s? You are spoilt! The one I was working on was a Selmer.
 
I can see why dp fusing might be used in equipment where polarity was uncertain, but can't understand why it was used in cutouts and fuseboxes in fixed installations.
FWIW, I can't understand, either, but it certainly happened.

Did we ever have supplies that weren't referenced to earth (IT)?
Even if we did (and I think not, at least in general), I would have thought that having a floating supply would, if anything, be a reason for not having (not needing) DP fusing, wouldn't it?

Kind Regards, John.
 
Double fused cut-outs were banned in the 1930's!
Ah, the very man :) Yes, I know they were banned in the 1930's, but I also know (as you do) that we haven't yet been able to total rid ourselves of them 70-80 years later!

Anyway, maybe you know what the thinking was that led to their existance before they were banned?

Kind Regards, John.
 
Double poled fusing is related to times gone by before the national grid was set up when supplies from the hundreds of local private electricity generating companies had no common standards. Some provided power not referenced to earth and some provided supplies that were centre tapped to ground at the generator so both sides had to be fused ( equivalent to each house being between two phases today ).

Only when the neutral potential was held close to ground ( ie the fuse would be unlikely to blow on a neutral ground fault ) did the use of a neutral fuse become redundant. Then it was realised that a neutral fuse blowing on a phase neutral short and the phase fuse not blowing would leave all wiring live but apparent dead as nothing worked. So the neutral fuse had to go even though all live wiring is still safe to the user provided the supply is isolated before any work is done on the wiring.
 
Double poled fusing is related to times gone by before the national grid was set up when supplies from the hundreds of local private electricity generating companies had no common standards. Some provided power not referenced to earth and some provided supplies that were centre tapped to ground at the generator so both sides had to be fused ( equivalent to each house being between two phases today ).
In the case of centre-tapped (to earth) supplies, there obviously is a need for DP fusing. However, as I wrote yesterday, if the supply is truly floating relative to earth, then I see no real case - a SP fuse in either line would seem to be all one needed. Maybe they used DP fusing with such supplies just in case one (either!) of the lines did somehow acquire an unintentional connection to earth?

However, I suspect that there is also something in what I suggested before - that fusing was, at some point in history, regarded solely as a means of protecting cables/supplies/equipment from damage due to overcurrent, without much (if any) consideration of risks to persons.

Kind Regards, John.
 
However, I suspect that there is also something in what I suggested before - that fusing was, at some point in history, regarded solely as a means of protecting cables/supplies/equipment from damage due to overcurrent, without much (if any) consideration of risks to persons.
I was talking today with a friend about "old people" and how they coped in the bad old days. The concensus was they had more respect for this "new fangled electricity" and used it with more attention to safety. The average person needed far less "supervision" and cotton wool protection than today's Mr and Mrs Average.

Maybe they used DP fusing with such supplies just in case one (either!) of the lines did somehow acquire an unintentional connection to earth?
There was always the possibility of a phase or neutral being grounded in a house without any adverse effect in that house. Only when the other side was earthed in another house would there be adverse effects.
 
I can see why dp fusing might be used in equipment where polarity was uncertain, but can't understand why it was used in cutouts and fuseboxes in fixed installations. Did we ever have supplies that weren't referenced to earth (IT)? I know in my area the original electricity supply was DC, so I have no idea how that was distributed.

TWO Vox AC30s? You are spoilt! The one I was working on was a Selmer.

I have 4 AC30's :eek: 2 1960's and 2 TBX from the 90's
 
I was talking today with a friend about "old people" and how they coped in the bad old days. The concensus was they had more respect for this "new fangled electricity" and used it with more attention to safety. The average person needed far less "supervision" and cotton wool protection than today's Mr and Mrs Average.
They varied between extremes. In the case of my grandmother, who didn't die until 1989, that 'respect' manifested itself as total fear, to the extent that, despite many decades of exposure to them, she would never touch a light switch or turn a TV on/off, and continued using her 'flat iron', heated on the gas stove, to the end of her days. In diametric contrast, her husband (my grandfather) would happily connect anything (heaters included) to a bayonet plug and plug it into a lampholder, have amazing Christmas trees of adaptors eminanting from sockets and lampholders, would join cables by twisting together the live conductors and leaving them exposed (in later years, he progressed to 'insulating tape'), and was known to use the pins of a plug to trap bare conductors into a socket to supply an additional load!

Kind Regards, John.
 

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