New Garage Electrics

gary79 · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:56 pm Post Subject: New Garage Electrics

I am soon to be installing a new supply circuit and CU for my mums newly built garage which is adjacent to her house. It is going to have 4 small flourescent lights on 2 switches and about 3 - 4 sockets which may power some small machinery. Just a couple of questions, would a 10mm T & E cable be sufficient or would I get away with a 6mm and is plastic mini trunking up the walls for the cable to be clipped to a central plank running on top of the joists good enough? I ask all this because I now have to comply with all the Part P regs. I'm on the books as a competant electrician but I'm not up to date with the new regs or the Part P ones. What size MCB would you recommend for the circuit off the houses CU and there is only an old 100ma RCD on the incoming tails before the houses CU. Should I get an MCB/RCD main switch on the garages fuse board and what rating do you think? I no longer work as a sparky so my mates company will be testing it.

1974stephen · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:30 pm Post Subject:

If your mates company are going to be testing it and signing that the work that you have done is up to standard, I would suggest they are by far the best people to ask what should be installed.

After all if someone on this forum suggests something that you then do, and they think it is not suitable, who's going to be a bit pi**ed off?

pdcelec · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:10 am Post Subject: Re: New Garage Electrics

gary79 wrote:

I I ask all this because I now have to comply with all the Part P regs. I'm on the books as a competant electrician but I'm not up to date with the new regs or the Part P ones.

mmmmmmmmmmm?

gary79 · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:37 pm Post Subject:

Yes I know it sounds like a contradiction (I just worded it crap) but they came out and watched me when i done a CU change and were happy with the work done and it passed all the neccesary tests. Basically I can do the job and a good one at that - I'm just not totally up on the newest regs and wonder how tightly I have to follow some of them to comply with Part P. I've heard something about new earth sizes and and wonder if it applies to this new installation I'm doing. I hope that clears it up.

pdcelec · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:54 pm Post Subject:

Does this show the real standard of Domestic Installers (competent persons scheme members). I am not a member of a scheme so I feel that I could not possibly give an answer to someone who is classed as more competent than myself. I do know the answer to the question though.

This thing about new earth sizes. Have you heard about it in BS7671 or elsewhere?

seahawk2nigel · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:15 pm Post Subject: gary79

COMPETENT PERSON!!!! youv'e got to be kidding me.

To answer your question regarding the supply cable and size of fuse for the submain cable... firstly you need to calculate the total loading within the garage (including the 1.8 multiplying factor for the starting current of the light fittings). Once you have this total current value, you can then asses the size of protective device needed to supply the garage (Allow possibly 20% extra for future expansion).
Then you need to CALCULATE not ask?! the size of cable which will take into account the cable length and the type of cable and the installation methods used.
Because you are outside the equipotential zone, you will certainly need a 30mA RCD protecting all the circuits, ensuring that you have discrimination of any other RCD's that may already be installed in the house. (A time delayed RCD may have to be installed within the house if this is the case)
I am a qualified electrician/lecturer, and it annoys me when people take the dangers incorporated with electical installations, with a pinch of salt. INCORRECTLY INSTALLED CIRCUITS / EQUIPMENT CAN KILL - CALL A COMPETENT - QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN for goodness sake!

breezer · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:21 pm Post Subject:

seahawk2nigel, trouble is the majority will not believe you, welcome to the forums

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ban-all-sheds · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:01 pm Post Subject:

gary79 wrote:

I ask all this because I now have to comply with all the Part P regs.

There are only two...

Quote:

I'm on the books as a competant electrician

Whose books?

Quote:

but I'm not up to date with the new regs or the Part P ones

New regulations do not change the basic physics of cable ratings etc.

If you were up to date in the past then you should appreciate the importance of getting back up to date now, and before starting to do things.

Quote:

they came out and watched me when i done a CU change and were happy with the work done and it passed all the neccesary tests.

Who are "they"? What tests did they do, and how did they document that it had "passed"?

Quote:

Basically I can do the job and a good one at that - I'm just not totally up on the newest regs

http://www.iee.org/Publish/Books/WireAssoc/index.cfm?book=WR%20250

http://www.iee.org/Publish/Books/WireAssoc/index.cfm?book=NS%20031

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0863413749

or http://www.iee.org/Publish/Books/WireAssoc/index.cfm?book=WR%20261

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0953788539

or http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Electricians_Guide_Book/index.html

Quote:

and wonder how tightly I have to follow some of them to comply with Part P.

http://www.iee.org/Publish/Books/WireAssoc/index.cfm?book=WR%20500

also see Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004

IMPORTANT NOTE - when buying books from Amazon, seek confirmation that they are the latest versions.

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securespark · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:10 pm Post Subject: Re: New Garage Electrics

I'm afraid I'm with Ban, here:

gary79 wrote:

I'm on the books as a competant electrician

However.............................

Quote:

I'm not up to date with the new regs or the Part P ones.

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seahawk2nigel · Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:01 pm Post Subject: TO ALL CONCERNED

Hi to all you electrical "enthusiasts."

Just for you to know that if any of you really wish to become a "Qualified Electrician" then please look at a list of courses below, that are probably available at your local college.

These qualifications are whats needed if you wish to continue as an electrician or become a member of a Competent Scheme.

I have listed each qualification and also a description of what that entitles you to do.

If anyone has any questions, I would be happy to oblige.

Regards

Nigel

NVQ level 2 – Electrical Installation
Competent to install electrical equipment under the supervision of qualified personnel.

City and Guilds 2330 Level 2 Electrotechnical Certificate
This provides the certificate which demonstrates sufficient technical knowledge to install electrical equipment under the supervision of qualified personnel.

City and Guilds 2330 Level 3 Electrotechnical Certificate
This provides the certificate which demonstrates sufficient technical knowledge to install electrical equipment without the supervision of qualified personnel.

Part P – Domestic Installers Scheme (17 Units)
This provides a certificate which can be used as evidence to enrol with a regulatory body under the Competent Person Scheme

Part P – Domestic Installers Scheme (1 Unit)
This is designed for Electrical Personnel who require to self certify their Electrical Installation Work in a Domestic environment, under the Local Authority Building Control

City and Guilds 2377 Portable Appliance Testing
Competent level to undertake Portable Appliance Testing without the need for supervision.

City and Guilds 2381 16th Edition IEE Wiring Regulations
This qualification updates Electricians current knowledge of the IEE Wiring regulations.

City and Guilds 2391 Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations
This qualifies electrical personnel to Inspect and Test Electrical installations and submit Electrical Inspection Documents.

City and Guilds 2400 Design and Verification
This enables successful candidates to design electrical circuits/installations within the guidelines of BS7671.

Spark123 · Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:28 am Post Subject:

What about NVQ Level 3?

seahawk2nigel · Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:55 pm Post Subject: sparky123

The NVQ3 cant be taught in a college environment. This qualification is practically orientated which requires building a portfolio of evidence of all aspects of electrical installations which obviously requires being on site (real working environment).

If anyone reuires any information of the list of courses that I have previously posted then please feel free to contact me.

gary79 · Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:27 pm Post Subject: new garage electrics

In answer to all the questions, I recently added a new ring main circuit to my mums conservatory and spurred off the original downstairs lighting circuit. The council building inspector came out because it was a new circuit and watched me and after my friend came out and tested the ring and lighting circuits it all passed ok. I was then put on the councils register as a competant person and it is ok for me to do future installations as long as a 3rd party tests it and supplies the certificate. I don't think it means I'm Part P certified it just means the council are happy for me to carry out the work.

ban-all-sheds · Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:02 pm Post Subject:

And happy no doubt for you to pay them their fee while they do SFA to earn it...

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seahawk2nigel · Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:27 pm Post Subject:

HI all - its me again.
Generally this is an answer for gary69, but also information for all who wishes to read it.

To be a member of a competent persons scheme, That person has to SELF CERTIFY his/her own work. He/she must therefore produce either a minor works certificate or an electrical installation certificate for the works he/she completed.

It is currently illegal for anyone to install equipment without doing this. It is actually a criminal ofence to install equipment and not self certify it. (PART P - JANUARY 2005).
This act also carries a £5000.00 fine if one is caught.

I could actually telephone the police (not that I would) and they could arrest people if it was known that they were installing illegally, as I said earlier - It is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE!

I, as a contactor cannot test another mans work - unless that work already has a certificate to say that it has been certified by another person first! or if the work was completed before January 2005.

Then the inspection that I would be undertaking is known as a Periodic Inspection and ultimately I would produce a Periodic Certificate for the circuits that I test.

Hope this is helpfull.