circuit consumption calculations

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This is my first time so be gentle! How do you calculate the demand on an electrical circuit so that you can determine the correct cable size? . I have been asked to cable the lighting circuit to an extension which consists of 2 rooms - bathroom and bedroom. The bathroom will have 3 50w down-lighters, and a wall light/shaver point, and possibly an extractor. I do not know off-hand the power consumption of the shaver point and the extractor(is there a general guide?). I have been provided with 1.0mm twin + earth, which going from your excellent information is suitable for loads upto 3.24kw/h. Is it just as simple,as to add the sum of the power consumptions for the individual items in the circuit at 230v? :eek:
 
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thanks for the reply. Was the logic of adding the consumptions for the individual items correct? Why is it that domestic lighting circuits are normally done in 1.5mm on a 6A breaker ,if 1.0mm can handle upto 14a ?
 
to be on the safe side and to allow for voltage drop. 14 Amps is also the MAXIMUM, not the RECOMENDATION.
 
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whiz said:
thanks for the reply. Was the logic of adding the consumptions for the individual items correct? Why is it that domestic lighting circuits are normally done in 1.5mm on a 6A breaker ,if 1.0mm can handle upto 14a ?

if you use 1.5 you can rate the breaker at 10amp aswell

BR
 
Breezer's often right, and he's not wrong this time ;)

Copper wire is not a perfect conductor, it has resistance, so when current flows through it the voltage drops - you put 230V in at one end and you get less out at the other.

The amount the voltage drops depends on how long the wire is, and how much current is flowing. (V=IR and all that)

The resistance of 1mm cable is such that the voltage drop is 44mV per amp per metre of cable. Sounds trivial until you do the sums.

First, the wiring regs say that your voltage drop must not be more than 4%.

4% of 230V is 9.2V.

If you've got a 6A breaker, you have to design for 6 x 44mV = 264mV drop per metre of cable.

9.2 ÷ 0.264 = 35m.

In other words, your "14A" cable cannot carry 6A for more than 35m. Which isn't very far - for lights on the first floor of a 2-storey house you could lose 5-6m of that just in the run from the CU under the stairs, and that's if you can get up to the loft in a straight line. Allow for a bit of horizontal travel as well, and you've probably lost 25% of your allowance before you get to your first light.

Then there's the future to consider. Let's say you want to add a couple of 500W PIR floodlights on the outside wall of your house :cool:

So you swap your breaker for a 10A one (which is perfectly OK in terms of the current that your 1mm cable can carry before it gets too hot), and that 35m length comes down to 21m. Which really isnt far at all

Given that the difference in price between 1mm and 1.5mm cable is about 2p/m, is just isn't worth it. Bung in 1.5mm so you dont have to worry about distance or future loads - the figures above of 35m and 21m go up to 53m and 32m respectively.

You can read more on the details here: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.11.htm,

or here http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.1.htm if you want to find out about the other factors that affect what cable size you really need.
 
This is excellent stuff! Thanks for information lads (no anti-female stuff intented!). This information is really welcomed - i just loath reading those electrical books which don't spell it out in black and white just how to work things out in common sense terms. Where not all einsteins - athought i could give you a good explanation of relativity if you wanted!

Ban-all_sheds (and any one else!)- all that stuff applies to a circuit that in theory draws 6a maximum. How would you calculate exactly what current the circuit will draw under normal operating circumstances? Going from my example,of 2 rooms with 3 down lighters,shaver point, exctractor how would you calculate the current drawn? As i mentioned in the earlier emails, is an alternative to sum up the power ratings of individual items in the circuit and see if it fall below the given set rating? Please forgive me if appear naive - thats simply because i am!

Basically, if this was a job of yours how would you go about assessing it and determining what you need ?
 
for a domestic situation, most would install 1.5 mm cable and have done with it. To sit and work it all out would cost too much, and then what if some one changes a lamp? calulations out the window.

If on the other hand it was more elaborate then yes, it should be worked out as to what is what etc, ordainiry house, nothing out of the ordainairy, 1.5mm cable, 2 lighting ccts one up one down
 
Thanks for the advice! As you can probably agree, that as a novice spark as i am (and very keen to learn from the pro's), you want to understand why things are done as they are! I can appreciate that from your years of experience, you know exactly whats is required and involved in certain circumstances, and hence you don't need to do all the calculation stuff!

On all the domestic installations i have been involved with it has always been 1.5mm. The fact that i was suddenly given 100m of 1.0mm and told to get on with the job, kinda prompted the question at hand? I'm kinda glad in a way, as it has given me a greater insight!

I really appreciate your advice. What i have noticed in my short time as a trainee spark is the utter crap that some so called sparks (cowboys, yee-haa!) give as helpful advice! Lets just say that the last helpfull advice sent me flying across a room!

keep up the good work.

ps. will you sit my part 2 CG for me?
 
when on site, rule #1

don't believe any one else, your life may depend on it, if you are going to work on anything YOU test it, then isolate and lock it off!
 
ban-all-sheds said:
The resistance of 1mm cable is such that the voltage drop is 44mV per amp per metre of cable..
Is this the same for other cables ? can you enlighten me on all up to, say, 10mm ?
It's the sort of trivial info I love to collect. I've tried the k-zone you mentioned but I can't get into the tables :cry: (I'm the type that goes and buys a plugtop, takes it home and puts a 3amp fuse in 'cos it's for a b/side lamp, not a fire)
TIA
 
whizBan-all_sheds (and any one else!)- all that stuff applies to a circuit that in theory draws 6a maximum. How would you calculate exactly what current the circuit will draw under normal operating circumstances? Going from my example,of 2 rooms with 3 down lighters,shaver point, exctractor how would you calculate the current drawn? As i mentioned in the earlier emails, is an alternative to sum up the power ratings of individual items in the circuit and see if it fall below the given set rating? Please forgive me if appear naive - thats simply because i am!

Basically, if this was a job of yours how would you go about assessing it and determining what you need ?

Well - I'm happy to tell you what I'd do, but I must point out that I'm not a qualified electrician. Neither am I clueless, but if I say anything here that's wrong, I trust that one of the pros will correct me - that way we both learn.

As breezer says, in practice you mostly wouldn't bother, for a "normal domestic" installation, as it just isn't worth anyones time, and therefore money, to decide if 1.0 or 1.5mm cable is needed for the lights. If it's a very big house, and you've got either lots of big rooms, or very long runs from the CU, you might find you need 2.5mm. But not often, and I guess one of the things that comes with experience is being able to make those determinations without a lot of detailed work. Which means that you should know how to do the calculations, and actually do them at first until you are confident that you can simply look at a site, make a few quick estimations and come up with an answer which you know will meet the requirements of the customer and in a way that conforms to BS7671.

In this case the right thing to do would be just to add everything up, as it would be quite reasonable for everthing to be on at once. And then have a look around and think what might be added in the future, e.g. might someobody want to replace the light in the bedroom with one that has 3 or 4 100w lamps in it? Would wall lights here and here be a possibility? Might someone drill through the wall to feed floodlights outside? Everywhere you go, start looking to see what people tend to do so that you can allow for future expansion.

But as for other circuits, there are all sorts of guidelines and accepted practices for estimating the maximum demand, and there you're into something called diversity, where, basically, you don't assume that because a ring main has 10 2-gang sockets on it that the maximum load is going to be 260A!

You can read about all that here: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.2.1.htm (I can recommend buying that book, BTW).

Here's another example, in this case the factors to consider in kitchens: http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/Amd1andRC.pdf

Also I'm sure that the On Site Guide and various IEE Guidance Notes will have information on this, and if you're studying for your C&G at college then I expect the topic will be introduced at the appropriate time.


scobyIs this the same for other cables ? can you enlighten me on all up to, say, 10mm ?
It's the sort of trivial info I love to collect. I've tried the k-zone you mentioned but I can't get into the tables

Yo - some of the #placemark links on the k-zone site don't work (well, he does work for Sun.... :LOL: ) - scroll down until you find the tables. Also, if you're going to use info like that (i.e. just put on a website by some private individual, whom you don't know from Adam, and who, for all you know, might be a complete idiot ;)), you should satisfy yourself that he's got it right. You can find info on cable calcs here: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.1.htm.


I keep plugging that book/website - I suppose I should say something like "other reference books are available", (even though I don't know what they are).
 
Cheers ban all sheds, I find it more interesting and easier to work things out than do the boring physical stuff. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
BTW :evil: :evil: Is anybody else as pee'd off as me as I've just discovered that tomorrow (Sunday) we can't watch England play in the World Cup on itv1 but we're forced to watch wales ? :evil: :evil: :evil:
 
It is unlikely that 2.5mm cable will ever be used for domestic lighting, for three reasons.

1. by rule of thumb. the maximum number of lighting points served on a domestic or commercial lighting circuit should not exceed ten lighting points.

2. by rule of good practice. lighting points on different floors should be connected on separate circuits and thus protected by different fuses or breakers. it would also be good practice to connect outside lighting points on a different circuit form the inside lights, so that a fault on one circuit will not affect all the lamps.

3. if the maximum volt drop cannot be achieved with 1.5mm cable then the circuit should be designed with sub-main board so the the protective device is closer to the lighting point.

the book that must be complied with is BS 7671 the IEE wiring regulations, the on site guide should not be used as a substitute for the regs themselves and it says this right at the front of the on site guide.

BS 7671 the IEE wiring regulations is quite a difficult book for the non electrician to understand, in my experience its also difficult for some qualified electricians as well. the most important thing for everyone who carries out electrical work is to understand how to inspect and test the wiring that has been installed. if a fault occurs the person who has installed is liable. electrical faults lead to fires and death.
 
supersparks said:
whiz said:
thanks for the reply. Was the logic of adding the consumptions for the individual items correct? Why is it that domestic lighting circuits are normally done in 1.5mm on a 6A breaker ,if 1.0mm can handle upto 14a ?

if you use 1.5 you can rate the breaker at 10amp aswell

BR

IMPORTANT , the ceiling rose's Lighting Flex MUST also be uprated to 1.5mm, from the usual 0.75mm, otherwise a breach of the wiring regulations will occur - the flex must be protected along it's entire length.
This point can be easily overlooked.
 

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