Underperforming central heating & hot water system

jzbaker · 12 Jul 2006

Dear All,

Any advice on what might be wrong with my central heating & water system? The system in run by a Trianco Oil Fired Boiler and is a minimum of 13 years old (looks older). It is very unlikely that the system has been overhauled in any way over that period. (I've just bought it)

At the moment the hot water delivery is very patchy around the house. Some taps deliver piping hot water whilst other are luke warm at best. The central heating works quite well but all the rads are original (1930s cast iron).

I'm not a DIY hero so I have asked a plumber to have a look. He recommended a new pump for the boiler. This in turn he believes will necessitate new pipework and vaves in the basement as he believes the exisitng ones are corroded and might leak under the new pressure. He also thinks that the system needs to be drained and flushed out and then refilled.

The house is very large and so unfortunately is the quote so before I undertake the work I just wanted to double check that it sounds sensible. My concern is that he can only see the outside of the pipes and valves - how does he know that they need to be replaced. They look alright to me - they aren't leaking for instance.

Also he is talking about replacing just the pipes in the basement - not all over the house. If the ones in the basement need replacing why don't the others?

Obviously I should ask him direct but my wife has been looking after this and I am away from home at the moment, so can't speak to him direct.

Any advice?

Many thanks

John

Agile · 12 Jul 2006

"""They look alright to me - they aren't leaking for instance."""

Typical user assessment! If they are not leaking they are allright !

Without seeing your system its difficult to comment apart from saying that the additional pressure from a new pump will make no difference at all to the the pipework.

I have this suspicion that its all in very old steel and this may be very well corroded internally.

If so then its difficult to know how to deal with it because it is probably rather blocked but acid treatment can cause leaks and working on steel pipework is very expensive.

Whether the pump needs replacing or not depends on the type of pump you have now. Any photo or type number?

Tony Glazier

jzbaker · 12 Jul 2006

Thanks Agile.

I don't have a pump serial number to hand. I trust that it isn't working properly though as before the plumber came a boiler specialist had a look at it (he recommended the plumber).

The pipes date from the 1930's so if steel was used then I guess that's what they are likely to be. Does it make sense that just the pipes in the basement are replaced at this stage? I don't see how that if they need to be replaced why don't all the pipes around the system need replacing.

I didn't know that cleaning the system out might actually cause leaks in itself. That's useful to know and I will ask the plumber about the risks.

Any other advice or thoughts about wha I should consider would be appreciated.

jzbaker · 12 Jul 2006

PS Agile.

Perhaps I am getting my wires slightly crossesd. The Mrs said yesterday that the plumber was just referring to the valves needing to be replaced. That might make more sense if there is a change in pressure due to the new pump.

She did say today though that he was talking about pipes as well. Hmm. Not sure. Given cost though I thought surely it must involve tricky pipe work.

Nige F · 12 Jul 2006

jzbaker said:
PS Agile.

Perhaps I am getting my wires slightly crossesd. The Mrs said yesterday that the plumber was just referring to the valves needing to be replaced. That might make more sense if there is a change in pressure due to the new pump.

She did say today though that he was talking about pipes as well. Hmm. Not sure. Given cost though I thought surely it must involve tricky pipe work.

You bet

Iron fighting is bad enough from new .....let alone 60 yr old........could be a gravity circuit on the heating that`s been converted to "pump assisted"....just like one I assisted on in the 70`s as an apprentice

As Agile says new valves are no answer. What you need is someone in their 50`s who actually knows how old systems work ........NOT the rocket-science of new combi`s etc.

Nige F · 12 Jul 2006

To answer your post about the HOT delivery.......that`s a problem with the secondary circuit from the hot cylinder...Secondary circuit would need a Bronze pump

see if your plumber is talking about renewing that one

jzbaker · 12 Jul 2006

Thanks Nige F.

As far as I know (only my wife has met them) the guys looking at the system have been in the business for quite some time so they should know how old systems work.

It's interesting that you think the valves, etc. shouldn't be affected by the pressure. As I said (and I admit I know nothing) I haven't seen any corrosion, certainly no leaks.

I'm worried now that flushing out the system might cause new problems. I'm going to wait for the written quote to see how it all breaks down and then discuss the possibilities with the plumber. Will post his answers here.

Nige F · 12 Jul 2006

Well ,I still maintain that a flushing will only do for the rad circuit/and the heat exchanger inside the hot cylinder....IF you can flush 60 yr. old column? rads.(like they had in schools.) I may be judging harshly but I`ve drawn the conclusion from this forum that those who know modern boilers etc(which I don`t) are quite often lacking in the knowledge of the older and ,it has to be said.....Simpler systems.It will be interesting to learn what the prospective contractors propose to do.and how they describe your setup.

Agile · 12 Jul 2006

It would be normal to replace the pump valves because the old ones will no longer be in working order. Cost with standard pump less than £200 plus vat.

What more, if anything, would be advisable is difficult to judge without seeing it. Certainly an old system is likely to be somewhat corroded but any effective treatment is likely to cause leaks which will be VERY expensive to fix.

If only people over 50 can talk about old systems then count me out!

Perhaps if you need to be over 65 then Water Systems will come into his own at last?

Tony

Nige F · 13 Jul 2006

Still a young`un, then Tony?

.I still can`t follow the logic of a clean on the Heating circuit to remedy a DHW delivery problem

.I know that I`m at a disadvantage because most of my evidence is anectdotal, but I`ve seen iron pipework remain very much cleaner than most copper pipe/steel rad systems despite running in a large open vented C/H systemsysten with knackered old pumpsets dribbling constantly..therefore renewing the water

..someone of any age with the technical facts

jzbaker · 13 Jul 2006

Thanks for all the replies. I'm learning a lot. We've only been in the house concerned since April and are slowly realising the money pit that it is. The quote for draining and flushing the system, replacing some valves and adding a new digital timer is £5500!! (and new boiler pump)

Our main concern at the moment is just to get the hot water running out of each tap. The further form the boiler/hot water tank you get the more luke warm it becomes. It's amusing that in the sinks with the best hot water delivery, the cold water barely runs.

Now that I have a chance to think about it I am beginning to question the need to drain and flush the system (unless a new pump necessitates it) - the rads which came on when we needed to heat the house in cold April were very effective (they are the old 'school' variety) - great to sit on for a few seconds but far too hot to linger. Goes backto my thought that we are being encouraged by the plumber to commit to very costly work on just a supposition that the system will be clogged.

Will keep you all posted.

Nige F · 14 Jul 2006

jzbaker said:
Thanks for all the replies. I'm learning a lot. concern at the moment is just to get the hot water running out of each tap. The further form the boiler/hot water tank you get the more luke warm it becomes. It's amusing that in the sinks with the best hot water delivery, the cold water barely runs.

Will keep you all posted.

.......these symptoms are to do with The Hot Water Cylinder Pipework..secondary circuit....I am assuming there is on on a "large" house. unless your plumbers mention the simple fact that it`s the water system from the hot water store/cylinder/calorifier....which is in need of attention then You and I are in the dark. and it`s your money

my time costs nothing........Cold barely running..That`s corroded iron pipes (probably)...they are galvanised pipes . the heating pipes are bare steel because the heating system water does not change like the domestic water...the heating water stays in the system and is filled from a small cistern in the roof . Try getting a plumber and throwing a few phrases @ him like secondary circuit .Gravity circulation . Bronze pump.Lead tails to taps. Black iron. Galvanized iron. If his answers are the same as mine give him the ££

jzbaker · 17 Jul 2006

I spoke to the plumber proposing the works mentioned. He is adamant that the pipes and valves from the boiler need to be changed and that the system needs to be drained and rebalanced so that each radiator heats evenly. He thinks this should also make the system more fuel efficient.

the valves have white, granular deposits around them which does imply leakage/seepage I guess. One of the valve handles is almost corroded away to half its original size.

The pump is definitely not working, which is clear even to me and has ancient electric cable running to a very old timer. The electrics are clearly dangerous (which is consistent with bonkers electrics throughout he rest of the house - another drain on the pocket).

He said he won't touch the hot water job without doing the pipe replacement as the whole system will still need to be drained and the valves are most likely to seize. He says the hot water system is an Indirect system. He did say that the hot water needs a bronze pump.

I took photos of the pipes at the week-end. I think their interesting - don't know if I can attach them to these messages.

I'm tempted to go ahead now but still cautious about the money involved - seems to add up to about £7,500 all in. (another £2k if we decide to replace the boiler too).

Concerned,

John[/img]

Nige F · 17 Jul 2006

You should be concerned

.........I`m saying no more on this post ..I`ll leave it to the "ex-spurts"

Spend the money on a re wire

a flooded out house is better than a burned out one . I`m not critisising your plumber ..but we have so little concrete info. via you that , with respect to you and your tradesman . I`m getting lost on this thread

ChrisR · 17 Jul 2006

Time to call in another local guy for a quote and some info.

Quite often taps on old iron pipes have rusty deposits right behind/under them, which can be at least partially cleared by removing or just dismantling the tap, depending on type. Worth a try, because it doesn't cost thousands.
Some taps esp mixers have screw on filters on the end of the spout, which hold crud and stop water coming out.

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Underperforming central heating & hot water system

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