Loft Storage - Can I remove These (w/Pics)

Matt_Leic · 14 Jul 2007

Hi I'm Matt and I'm new here.

My knowledge in the building trade is pretty poor so plz bare with me. Basically I want to free the space in my loft by putting some flooring down and lining the roof with something to keep the crap from falling on my bits.

I want to know if it is safe to remove the 2 transoms (is that what they're called? the 2 lengths of wood that go across) in my loft, when pushed it seems that they're not holding much together. Here is some images I just took, what do you think?

Also what is the cheapest material can I use to line the roof with?

[/img]

Thx for any info given.

Matt.

noseall · 14 Jul 2007

you have a pair of purlins supporting the rafters at mid-span and directly below, a pair of ceiling binders (summil beams) supporting the ceiling joists at 1/3rd span.

none of these can be removed indefinitely.

breezer · 14 Jul 2007

dont live in a maionette do you?

thats just like where i used to live.

my neighbour did take them out, his roof now bows inwards

Softus · 14 Jul 2007

The purlins are clearly essential, but the cross bracing timbers above those appear to be doing nothing. Equally, I don't believe that the upright members under the purlins are doing anything.

noseall · 15 Jul 2007

Softus said:
The purlins are clearly essential, but the cross bracing timbers above those appear to be doing nothing. Equally, I don't believe that the upright members under the purlins are doing anything.

the spread bracings could be removed but i would advise fitting some replacements closer to the ridge. say every other pair of rafters.

the uprights between purlin and binder are there to 'share' the load and help prevent twist. probably.

LOAM · 18 Jul 2007

Softus said:
The purlins are clearly essential, but the cross bracing timbers above those appear to be doing nothing. Equally, I don't believe that the upright members under the purlins are doing anything.

Are you nuts ?

The cross bracing you see are collars, they are there to prevent roof spread, whilst the rafters are fixed at the wall plate, ceiling joists and again at the ridge. The rafters will naturally try to move out over from the wall plate (imagine the ridge as the pivot point) and its the collars that are preventing this from happening (its forming a triangle). Secondly the upright members are props and they are doing exactly what it says on the tin, propping the purlin.

There are many options available to people wanting to remove either of these structural members and all involve a degree of additional strengthening to the remaining members, this can either be in the form of a ply lining to the underside of the rafters along with at steel stiffening plate being used on the purlin.

Remove them without asking a SE to look over it at your peril.

LOAM

Softus · 18 Jul 2007

LOAM said:
Softus said:

The purlins are clearly essential, but the cross bracing timbers above those appear to be doing nothing. Equally, I don't believe that the upright members under the purlins are doing anything.

Click to expand...

Are you nuts ?

No.

The cross bracing you see are collars, they are there to prevent roof spread,

I agree that they look like collars, and agree that collars are useful, but I don't agree that these are useful collars. Look at the height of the purlins and the height of the cross bracing timbers. They look to me as though they were installed by someone who'd watched someone else build a roof, and tried to mimic the effort.

whilst the rafters are fixed at the wall plate, ceiling joists and again at the ridge.

Sorry - I can't make sense out of those words.

The rafters will naturally try to move out over from the wall plate (imagine the ridge as the pivot point) and its the collars that are preventing this from happening (its forming a triangle).

The 'collars' are sitting on the purlins - I don't call that forming a triangle.

Secondly the upright members are props and they are doing exactly what it says on the tin, propping the purlin.

Again, they're doing an impression of props without actually being props. They're not even half-lapped - they're just nailed on the side of the beam that spans the joists.

There are many options available to people wanting to remove either of these structural members and all involve a degree of additional strengthening to the remaining members, this can either be in the form of a ply lining to the underside of the rafters along with at steel stiffening plate being used on the purlin.

A flitch beam would be a reasonable way forward, if it weren't for the fact that the members you believe to be bearing a load aren't doing anything.

Remove them without asking a SE to look over it at your peril.

This, I agree with.

LOAM · 18 Jul 2007

whilst the rafters are fixed at the wall plate, ceiling joists and again at the ridge.

seems ok to me tbh, but what I mean is the Rafters are fixed to the wall plate and (often via a dog collar or just nailed) to the ceiling joists and again to the ridge beam.

The 'collars' are sitting on the purlins - I don't call that forming a triangle.

Its difficult to tell from the photos but I would assume they are actually fixed to the rafters and just happen to be located above the purlins, either way i would always edge on the side of caution and assume they are.

Again, they're doing an impression of props without actually being props. They're not even half-lapped - they're just nailed on the side of the beam that spans the joists.

Granted they do look odd in the position they are, it looks it was harder to put them in that location rather than sit them directly under the purlin and on top of the binder.

Soz about the nuts thing

LOAM

Softus · 18 Jul 2007

LOAM said:
whilst the rafters are fixed at the wall plate, ceiling joists and again at the ridge.

Click to expand...

seems ok to me tbh, but what I mean is the Rafters are fixed to the wall plate and (often via a dog collar or just nailed) to the ceiling joists and again to the ridge beam.

Ah, yes. I get you. Sorry for being thick there.

The 'collars' are sitting on the purlins - I don't call that forming a triangle.

Click to expand...

Its difficult to tell from the photos but I would assume they are actually fixed to the rafters and just happen to be located above the purlins, either way i would always edge on the side of caution and assume they are.

I didn't mean that there was no fixing - I can see at least two nails on at least one of the 'collars', but my point was that they're right on top of the purlins, so they're not countering spread any more successfully than the purlins. In fact, they're detrimental because they're adding weight without adding strength.

Again, they're doing an impression of props without actually being props. They're not even half-lapped - they're just nailed on the side of the beam that spans the joists.

Click to expand...

Granted they do look odd in the position they are, it looks it was harder to put them in that location rather than sit them directly under the purlin and on top of the binder.

I was carefully not calling that member a "binder", because I don't trust it to have been fixed to the joists. It might be just a "sitter".

Soz about the nuts thing

No worries.

LOAM · 18 Jul 2007

ive done a little scribble as to what i think they are doing to prevent roof spread

I still think they are preventing the rafters from opening out at the eaves.
Either way its moot point as the op needs to have a chat with a SE before he starts ripping stuff out his loft

masona · 18 Jul 2007

Secondly the upright members are props and they are doing exactly what it says on the tin, propping the purlin.

Softus said:
Again, they're doing an impression of props without actually being props. They're not even half-lapped - they're just nailed on the side of the beam that spans the joists.

These upright members may have been put in by a diy'er, the way it is now, all that is doing, the purlin is pushing downward onto the ceiling binder on the centre of the ceiling. I don't like that roof setup, the best way is for the purlin to be on a angle flushed to the roof rafters and braces on both side at 45 degrees meeting together at the load bearing wall

diynot

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Loft Storage - Can I remove These (w/Pics)

breezer

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