Consumer unit bathroom, nothing on home report?

[JohnW2]

It's a condition report. You can't report the condition of a say, 70s era installtion in accordance to the 17th edtion as you know from the outset they differ and regulations have never been retrospective.

OK, how do I report on the condition of an installation which was done in the 1970s when this was before I started my apprenticeship and have no knowledge of the regs at that time?

Surely an EICR does have to be undertaken with reference to the current (i.e. 17th Ed Amd 1) regs. In many cases, things that were acceptable under regs at the time they were installed will probably only need flagging up as 'not meeting current regulations'. However, in other situations (and despite the fact that it is often asserted that the regs 'are not retrospective'), some things are surely now unacceptable even if they were once compliant. For example, even if the old regs did not require main protective bonding or earthing of metal accessories, or were satisfied by disconnection times longer than are now regarded as acceptable, I would not have thought that a 2012 EICR could regard those failures of compliance with 17th Ed as 'acceptable'. Am I wrong?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Surely an EICR does have to be undertaken with reference to the current (i.e. 17th Ed Amd 1) regs.

Of course it does - it's utter nonsense to suggest otherwise.

In many cases, things that were acceptable under regs at the time they were installed will probably only need flagging up as 'not meeting current regulations'. However, in other situations (and despite the fact that it is often asserted that the regs 'are not retrospective'), some things are surely now unacceptable even if they were once compliant. For example, even if the old regs did not require main protective bonding or earthing of metal accessories, or were satisfied by disconnection times longer than are now regarded as acceptable, I would not have thought that a 2012 EICR could regard those failures of compliance with 17th Ed as 'acceptable'. Am I wrong?

No.

I'm sure that there must be some things which complied with the 1st Edition which would now, rightly, get a C1.

 

[JohnW2]

...Am I wrong?

No. I'm sure that there must be some things which complied with the 1st Edition which would now, rightly, get a C1.

Indeed. Perhaps more to the point, the same could (and probably is) true of some things which would have been compliant under 15th or 16th Editions. Whilst literally true, the belief that the regs 'are not retrospective' is not quite as straightforward as it sounds! It does raise some interesting questions. I deliberately chose some pretty extreme examples, but there must be a lot of potential discussion/debate as to where the line is to be drawn if one moves to more 'grey' areas.

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

Bring on the grey areas!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

How many shades would you like?

Maybe SB can advise...

 

[JohnW2]

Bring on the grey areas!

It could go on for ever, with as many opinions as their were participants in the discussion!

I've never really thought about this before, but it's a rather odd situation, since the decision as to what old-reg-compliant (but not current-reg-compliant) should be regarded as acceptable seems to essentially be left to the electrician's discretion. The examples I just gave were fairly extreme, and I would hope that not too many people would argue (much!), but there is clearly a whole spectrum of possibilities, many of which are far less 'clear cut'.

I suppose that RCDs (or the lack of them) is an obvious area for discussion. What about a (compliant when installed) shower or outdoor socket without RCD protection?

Kind Regards, John

 

[sparkwright]

The cutout and meter look rather new and the guy doing the install certainly wasn't short on phase labels, probably done just before the room was converted as would the DNO even supply a cutout to a point above a bath with just some painted wood to protect it?

Personally i'd want it moving as its an absolute pile of trouble waiting and what happens when the light go out and someone gets out of the bath and hits their head in the dark?

A lot of what we can see looks fairly new to me.

Would like to see inside that consumer unit to see what colour the wires are.

 

[JohnW2]

A lot of what we can see looks fairly new to me. Would like to see inside that consumer unit to see what colour the wires are.

It would be interesting, but I don't think it would prove much, since we are missing a crucial bit of information. The current occupants are said to be 'new' and, for all we know, the wall may have been knocked down just a few months ago, let alone pre-2004.

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

I suppose that RCDs (or the lack of them) is an obvious area for discussion. What about a (compliant when installed) shower or outdoor socket without RCD protection?

A lot of it does come down to the discretion of the inspector. You have to assess each non-compliance for risk and code it apropriately.

An outdoor socket at high level for the christmas lights is going to attract less severe coding than a socket at low level supplying a steam cleaner in daily use for example.

 

[JohnW2]

I suppose that RCDs (or the lack of them) is an obvious area for discussion. What about a (compliant when installed) shower or outdoor socket without RCD protection?

A lot of it does come down to the discretion of the inspector. You have to assess each non-compliance for risk and code it apropriately.

Exactly - as I wrote:

it's a rather odd situation, since the decision as to what old-reg-compliant (but not current-reg-compliant) should be regarded as acceptable seems to essentially be left to the electrician's discretion

As you will realise, in context my main point was that this puts paid to the view/belief that if something was compliant with the regs at the time it was installed, then it is necessarily 'OK' now (even though, as per recent discussions, it is no more 'dangerous' in 2012 than it was when it was compliant in the past).

An outdoor socket at high level for the christmas lights is going to attract less severe coding than a socket at low level supplying a steam cleaner in daily use for example.

Agreed - but I can see plenty of scope for differing opinions/'discretion' between inspectors in relation to even that (how high is 'high level'? What if the steam cleaner was used once a month, or once every 6 months? What if the current owner didn't use the socket at all, but a new occupant who might have lots of outdoor appliances/tools was about to take possession? etc. etc.)

Kind Regards, John

 

[SaladFingers]

It's a condition report. You can't report the condition of a say, 70s era installtion in accordance to the 17th edtion as you know from the outset they differ and regulations have never been retrospective.

OK, how do I report on the condition of an installation which was done in the 1970s when this was before I started my apprenticeship and have no knowledge of the regs at that time?

Surely an EICR does have to be undertaken with reference....

With reference, but you can't fail it for not meeting 17th, if that's what were meant.

 

[SaladFingers]

It's a condition report. You can't report the condition of a say, 70s era installtion in accordance to the 17th edtion as you know from the outset they differ and regulations have never been retrospective.

OK, how do I report on the condition of an installation which was done in the 1970s when this was before I started my apprenticeship and have no knowledge of the regs at that time?

You'd look for what's obviously dangerous, if anything at all. Anything else you make notes accordingly. To an electrician worth the paper his qualifications are written on, that'd make sense.

 

[RF Lighting]

It's a condition report. You can't report the condition of a say, 70s era installtion in accordance to the 17th edtion as you know from the outset they differ and regulations have never been retrospective.

OK, how do I report on the condition of an installation which was done in the 1970s when this was before I started my apprenticeship and have no knowledge of the regs at that time?

Surely an EICR does have to be undertaken with reference....

With reference, but you can't fail it for not meeting 17th, if that's what were meant.

Of course you can. If I came across a 1920's installation with exposed live parts, double pole fusing, mercury switches, and no earthing of course you could 'fail' it.

 

[SaladFingers]

It's a condition report. You can't report the condition of a say, 70s era installtion in accordance to the 17th edtion as you know from the outset they differ and regulations have never been retrospective.

OK, how do I report on the condition of an installation which was done in the 1970s when this was before I started my apprenticeship and have no knowledge of the regs at that time?

Surely an EICR does have to be undertaken with reference....

With reference, but you can't fail it for not meeting 17th, if that's what were meant.

Of course you can. If I came across a 1920's installation with exposed live parts, double pole fusing, mercury switches, and no earthing of course you could 'fail' it.

Unless it's inherently dangerous, then no, you can't for not meeting the 17th - it wasn't installed during the 17th. No earths, if there's no exposed metallical conductive parts, then what's the problem? Otherwise then if there's metal light fittings, then there's an issue.

 

[RF Lighting]

It's a condition report. You can't report the condition of a say, 70s era installtion in accordance to the 17th edtion as you know from the outset they differ and regulations have never been retrospective.

OK, how do I report on the condition of an installation which was done in the 1970s when this was before I started my apprenticeship and have no knowledge of the regs at that time?

You'd look for what's obviously dangerous, if anything at all. Anything else you make notes accordingly. To an electrician worth the paper his qualifications are written on, that'd make sense.

It unfortunately doesn't make sense.

You make notes on everything you find, from something which is immediately dangerous such as exposed live parts, right through to none electrical observations such as lack of emergency lighting. You assess the installation to the current edition of BS7671, and report ALL none compliances, however minor or major, and regardless of whether the installation was compliant at the time it was installed.