Yet more islamic peadophillia . . .

[itshere]

But you miss my point. I don't dispute that people will continue to export to the uk - that is because we need to import. My point is that it would be very easy for the eu to inhibit our exports because we don't export anything exclusive or in demand

Uk manufacturing is a very small part of the UK economy. The uk economy does not rely on goods we export we are a net importer. In reality the EU NEED us as a consumer now more than ever. They would NOT bite the hand that is feeding them right now.

Getting this thread back on topic which was islamic peadophilia leaving the EU would enable us to tackle immigration problems better , human rights issues,better.

We have never been in a more needy or better position to leave the EU than now.

If We left the EU and lets for arguments say .. If the EU decided to add duty to UK goods making them uncompetetive. We would similarly add duty to EU goods. This would make EU goods expensive to us. The result would then be that for example british consumers would start buying home made cheese instead of imported cheese.
There are many domestic industries and businesses that would benefit greatly from this effect.

If instead of importing things from abroad we made them for our own consumer market that would be of huge benefit to our balance of payments. Manufacturing is the highest wealth creating business and we have run it down instead passing all the profits to foreigners.

A resurgence of British Manufacturing would be the absolute healthiest thing that could happen to our economy.

 

[kingandy2nd]

JCB diggers.

And the UK is still the world's sixth largest producer of manufactured goods.

Yep, we're also pretty good at music, military equipment and wiskey but those things alone won't sustain our economy.

And of all the things we manufacture for export, half of them go to the EU. Something that may not happen so easily or cheaply if we do not make up part of the free trade block - thus hindering the UK's ability to compete.

Switzerland seems to be doing alright. A European country that isn't in the EU.
Are you telling me that the EU would seriously impose such duties on UK goods if we were to leave? The UK could retaliate by only buying Chinese tat and Taiwanese stuff. The truth is the EU deal with almost every country in the world (even though the vast majority of these countries are not in the EU)

Swizterland is a massive tax haven and thus benefits from it's financial sector where other countries/individuals deposit funds into their country. Also Swizterland is part of the EFTA and thus has to contriubte to the EU budget and abide by many EU laws without any of the benefits of EU membership (a share of the eu grants, a say on EU laws, etc).

Yes the potential is that the EU could impose such duties as a retaliatory measure for the UK snubbing the EU. Don't you think the French would like nothing more than to do that?

Yes would could just by goods from China, Taiwan etc but that won't help our trading deficit as China, Taiwan etc certainly won't step in and buy all those UK exports that otherwise would have gone to the EU.

Uk manufacturing is a very small part of the UK economy. The uk economy does not rely on goods we export we are a net importer.

No, manufacturing is still a large part of the economy. Yes we are a net importer, and that is a massive problem because unless you are net neutral over time the wealth of the nation is eroded.

In reality the EU NEED us as a consumer now more than ever. They would NOT bite the hand that is feeding them right now.

I don't disagree that the EU needs us as consumers. They also need us to give a balanced political view across Europe.

However, and the point that most people here don't seem to comprehend is that the UK does not have any essential or unique export items which means that EU can choose to switch their suppliers from the UK to anywhere else in the world to continue supplies and screw-over the UK.

Meanwhile, the UK will still need to buy cars, trains, planes, powertools, powerstations, food, etc etc which are all now supplied by EU member states as we don't have the ability to make these things in the UK anymore.

If We left the EU and lets for arguments say .. If the EU decided to add duty to UK goods making them uncompetetive. We would similarly add duty to EU goods. This would make EU goods expensive to us. The result would then be that for example british consumers would start buying home made cheese instead of imported cheese.
There are many domestic industries and businesses that would benefit greatly from this effect.

If instead of importing things from abroad we made them for our own consumer market that would be of huge benefit to our balance of payments. Manufacturing is the highest wealth creating business and we have run it down instead passing all the profits to foreigners.

A resurgence of British Manufacturing would be the absolute healthiest thing that could happen to our economy.

That's a lovely concept but you're living in la la land if you think its going to happen.

Are you suddenly going to re-invent the UK car manufacturing industry overnight? No. It would take huge investments in factories, machainery, training, support services - all at a time when the country is broke! It will never happen.

That means we could slap any duties we like on cars from the EU, but you and I as consumers still need a vehicle, so we as consumers end up still buying that VW Golf at a much higher cost as we now have an import duty added to the price.

The exact same thing could be said about the majority of 'heavy' industry where real money is made. Of course there will be some areas that would benefit from a boost in UK demand, such as food, but that won't sustain the economy.

 

[masona]

If our politicians had any ba@@s they would pull us out now.
So no referendum needed.

But why are they so scared of a referendum?
Why don't they trust the people?

Because PM has said that he does not want to leave the EU.

The EU need us more than we need them

 

[masona]

Norcon & Masona I know that one lot of politians are as bad as the next. Trust in any party is at an all time low.

But at least labour, conservatives, lib dems have some sort of policies and plans for the economy, the Heath service, education, etc etc. UKIP doesn't have a clue other than getting out of Europe.

I know but the truth is that the 3 main parties secretly won't give us the in/out referendum.

 

[itshere]

Sorry but your grasp of economics isnt really up to the argument.
You said it yourself our net importing is eroding our countries wealth,
but then ignore your own statement by arguing an opposite position.
Exports would not be affected by us leaving the EU.

If people are currently buying from us it is because they NEED those products. There will be resisitance by the populace and the EU to adding import duty to British Goods.

Buying things from the EU wont be prevented if we leave the EU we will still be sold to. As for imported goods becoming more expensive like cars. No worry. Buy a Honda or Nissan instead.

I for one dont want to see this country stay in the EU just because people want a cheap mercedes .. (which isn't cheap at all anyway)

 

[itshere]

That's a lovely concept but you're living in la la land if you think its going to happen.

If we left the EU market forces would MAKE it happen.
Are you suggesting everyone would simply stop buying things?
Thats la la land thinking I'm afraid.

You haven't much of a grasp on economics and the maleable nature of its existance driven by human inventiveness.

The major change of course would have to be the banks opening up their lending purse strings to facilitate this change.

 

[itshere]

That means we could slap any duties we like on cars from the EU, but you and I as consumers still need a vehicle, so we as consumers end up still buying that VW Golf at a much higher cost as we now have an import duty added to the price.

Consumer choice but the import duty would be a direct tax benefit to the govt and would accelerate the debt reduction, why would that be bad.
The country would not need to invest in car making plants and infrastructure.
The car companies losing sales would simply set up factories in the uk to sell direct to the UK market.
Ford would come back to uk production for the Fiesta and we would gain from employment.

The economy does not see a problem and then just sit there saying boo hoo , it always finds a way around

 

[kingandy2nd]

Sorry but your grasp of economics isnt really up to the argument.
You said it yourself our net importing is eroding our countries wealth,
but then ignore your own statement by arguing an opposite position.
Exports would not be affected by us leaving the EU.

If people are currently buying from us it is because they NEED those products. There will be resisitance by the populace and the EU to adding import duty to British Goods.

Buying things from the EU wont be prevented if we leave the EU we will still be sold to. As for imported goods becoming more expensive like cars. No worry. Buy a Honda or Nissan instead.

I for one dont want to see this country stay in the EU just because people want a cheap mercedes .. (which isn't cheap at all anyway)

Seriously. Please take the time to read my posts and understand what I am trying to say because I am constantly reiterating the same points which you cannot grasp it seems.

People do not buy UK products because they NEED UK products. The buy products because they need the product, they do not care where it comes from. We produce very little that CANNOT be sourced elsewhere in the world if needed.

People by UK products where we are the best supplier for quality vs price. If the price of UK exports rise because of barriers to trade, then consumers will switch to other suppliers (I.e. other countries not subject to those trade barriers) if they then become cheaper than the UK item.


It is your grasp of economics which isn't up to it I'm afraid. Even if you buy a Nissan or Honda you are contributing to the trade deficit. Although those cars may be made in the UK, all the profits from those sales are transferred to Japan.

Try this for a basic explaination.

Imports = Money out of UK
Exports = Money into UK


UK company operating overseas = Money (profits) into UK
Foregin company operating in UK = Money (profits) out of UK


If you run a trade deficit of 1%, I.e for every £100 of imports you only export £99 - every year your country becomes 1% poorer. (Or £1 poorer in the example).

If your economy only had £100 to start with then in 100 years you'd be broke.

The UK has been alright because our wealth base was sufficient that the little bit of money lost every year to the trade deficit wasn't large in the scheme of things, but over a longer period of time the accumulation becomes a bit issue and you start to have to fund your economy through debt.

If we left the EU market forces would MAKE it happen.
Are you suggesting everyone would simply stop buying things?
.

No, that's not what I'm suggesting at all. For the umpteenthing time UK imports would remain relatively static. It is UK exports that suffer and thus the trade deficit widens.

You haven't much of a grasp on economics and the maleable nature of its existance driven by human inventiveness.
.

I have more of a grasp than you do it seems. People will always strive for the best quality vs price. There is little brand loyalty or nationalistic thinking when it comes to buying goods.

People think it's disgusting that Amazon pays no tax in the UK, but the next time they want to order a book I'll bet my bottom dollar that 99% of those same people will order that book from amazon if it's cheaper there.

The major change of course would have to be the banks opening up their lending purse strings to facilitate this change.

You can't lend money you haven't got.

 

[kingandy2nd]

That means we could slap any duties we like on cars from the EU, but you and I as consumers still need a vehicle, so we as consumers end up still buying that VW Golf at a much higher cost as we now have an import duty added to the price.

Consumer choice but the import duty would be a direct tax benefit to the govt and would accelerate the debt reduction, why would that be bad.
The country would not need to invest in car making plants and infrastructure.
The car companies losing sales would simply set up factories in the uk to sell direct to the UK market.
Ford would come back to uk production for the Fiesta and we would gain from employment.

The economy does not see a problem and then just sit there saying boo hoo , it always finds a way around

So basically you are saying the joe public needs to pay more tax to help reduct the UK goverment debt?

I agree with you there. But it's then you and I that end up footing the bill for this - whether it be through fictional import duties or through paying more income tax.

If the price goes up through duties, people buy less, consumer confidence goes, inflation rises and your stil shafting the economy.

It's all well and good to say that foregin companies might set up in the UK - but as per my other post, while it creates jobs, ultimately money is lost to the UK economy because foregin companies take their profits out of the UK - more money lost.

 

[AronSearle]

If the uk were not in the eu European countries could impose duties on uk imports to make them more expensive.

Hmmmmm..

You have acknowledged there are European countries that are members of the EFTA (European **Free Trade** Association), there is little reason to think we would not become a member, you even went on to say it would cost us (but a fraction of what we currently pay including the loss of the rebate).

We would be in a good position to negotiate as an importer, something you would find difficult to dispute.

But you want to argue we will would have duties imposed on our goods.

Colour me unimpressed with your argument.

Oh, and don't think I didn't notice you completely ignored Norcons point about the massive French farming subsidies (free trade my rear end).

The horsemeat scandal is a good example of the failure of harmonisation laws.

Facepalm.

The horse-meat scandal is a good example off the opposite.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/horsemeat-scandal-crashing-eu-failure.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/feb/12/horsemeat-scandal-european-regulation-changes

And you could also look up the breast implant scandal, and how utterly useless the CE marking scheme actually is.

Unfortunately the uk has lost or expertise and ability to build them and thus we must look to the French to do it for us.

Goes back to what I was saying before - we'd miss EU imports more

Wait, what....?

What a joke of an argument, now you are trying to claim we will "miss imports" if we pull out of the EU, right after saying how WE would be at a disadvantage because our goods will have tariffs slapped on them making them harder to sell.

What an utter load of bilge coming out of your brain.

 

[kingandy2nd]

If the uk were not in the eu European countries could impose duties on uk imports to make them more expensive.

Hmmmmm..

You have acknowledged there are European countries that are members of the EFTA (European **Free Trade** Association), there is little reason to think we would not become a member, you even went on to say it would cost us (but a fraction of what we currently pay including the loss of the rebate).

We would be in a good position to negotiate as an importer, something you would find difficult to dispute.

But you want to argue we will would have duties imposed on our goods.

Colour me unimpressed with your argument.

Oh, and don't think I didn't notice you completely ignored Norcons point about the massive French farming subsidies (free trade my rear end).

The horsemeat scandal is a good example of the failure of harmonisation laws.

Facepalm.

The horse-meat scandal is a good example off the opposite.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/horsemeat-scandal-crashing-eu-failure.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/feb/12/horsemeat-scandal-european-regulation-changes

And you could also look up the breast implant scandal, and how utterly useless the CE marking scheme actually is.

Unfortunately the uk has lost or expertise and ability to build them and thus we must look to the French to do it for us.

Goes back to what I was saying before - we'd miss EU imports more

Wait, what....?

What a joke of an argument, now you are trying to claim we will "miss imports" if we pull out of the EU, right after saying how WE would be at a disadvantage because our goods will have tariffs slapped on them making them harder to sell.

What an utter load of bilge coming out of your brain.

Seriously dude, can you not have a discussion without throwing out insults?

I have show you the curtoesy of reading your posts and replying without insulting you.



Clearly you don't get or choose not to understand the points I'm trying to make and I keep on repeating the same thing over and over and over again.



We cannot live without imports from the EU. The EU can live without UK imports. Simple.

EFTA ties us to much of the same rules, regulations and costs as being in the EU - if we were permitted to join after exiting the EU - there is no precedent for this so there are no guarantees.

It is much in the same way there is no guarantee that Scotland would automatically joing the EU if they were to vote for independance. It is uncharted waters.


[/b]

 

[kingandy2nd]

You have acknowledged there are European countries that are members of the EFTA (European **Free Trade** Association), there is little reason to think we would not become a member, you even went on to say it would cost us (but a fraction of what we currently pay including the loss of the rebate).

Also, and VERY IMPORTANTLY EFTA memebers are subject to Free Movement of Workers

http://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons/persons.aspx

Given that many people wish to exit the EU to stop migration from the EU, I assume those same people will not wish to join EFTA as it will still allow migration of workers to the UK.

 

[AronSearle]

We cannot live without imports from the EU. The EU can live without UK imports. Simple.

So again, you iterate we have bargaining power (Also find it funny you think we can't live without BMW's and french nuclear engineers, as if they are the only ones), yet seem to think this put's us at a disadvantage, utterly topsy turvy logic.

EFTA ties us to much of the same rules, regulations and costs as being in the EU

As I already said, cost for the EFTA is approx 2 billion, cost for EU is 12 billion and rising (the budget rise we vetoed rose anyway), this ignores other bailout costs we get dragged into, and costs for adapting to legislation that may not be relevant to us, or in our interest (notice again how you ignore how the horse meat and breast implant scandal was created under EU legislation).

same people will not wish to join EFTA as it will still allow migration of workers to the UK.

Well, except that Sweden has managed to use it's safeguard clauses that allows them to enact quotas, and they have time restrictions on living there without finding work, and the benefit entitlements are not the same.

But apart from those minor differences, yea......


Please continue posting your rubbish, it's fun tearing you a new one.

 

[kingandy2nd]

Please continue posting your rubbish, it's fun tearing you a new one.

Sorry you are not tearing me a new anything. Making such claims makes you sound foolish.

You choose not to read or appreciate the points I am making.

I'm just thinking that you are a troll now as you can not understand basic logic and just keep going over the same ground over and over and over.

I just believe now that you are so entrenched in your viewpoint, that if I told you white was white and black was black that you would argue the toss rather agree.

We cannot live without imports from the EU. The EU can live without UK imports. Simple.

So again, you iterate we have bargaining power (Also find it funny you think we can't live without BMW's and french nuclear engineers, as if they are the only ones), yet seem to think this put's us at a disadvantage, utterly topsy turvy logic.

The UK has less bargaining power standing alone than as part of a larger organisation - complete the opposite of what you have stated above.


I have used examples of German cars and French nuclear power - as examples, but more generallistically I am saying that the UK has lost its own ability to produce things in many industries and thus we are reliant on imports.

Many of these things we cannot live without, so yes we are at a disadvantage as we need to import.

EFTA ties us to much of the same rules, regulations and costs as being in the EU

As I already said, cost for the EFTA is approx 2 billion, cost for EU is 12 billion and rising (the budget rise we vetoed rose anyway), this ignores other bailout costs we get dragged into, and costs for adapting to legislation that may not be relevant to us, or in our interest (notice again how you ignore how the horse meat and breast implant scandal was created under EU legislation).

You convenitently forget the rebate the UK has, plus all of the EU funding that UK projects recieve. There is no denying that the UK are net contributors to the EU budget, but it not like we just pay in and don't get anything back as you are indicating.

Horse meat and breast plants were not created under EU legislation. They broke EU legistlation

same people will not wish to join EFTA as it will still allow migration of workers to the UK.

Well, except that Sweden has managed to use it's safeguard clauses that allows them to enact quotas, and they have time restrictions on living there without finding work, and the benefit entitlements are not the same.

But apart from those minor differences, yea......

Errrr a minor difference is that Sweden are a member of the EU and not the EFTA. As such they are subject to the same migration rules as the UK. They may well choose to implemently differently, but they are still bound by the same laws.

I don't know anything about Swedish migration rules, so can't comment on what they do or dont do - other than to say that if they are doing so it must be within the remit of EU laws.

That means the UK goverment could choose to apply the same rules too as Sweden if they wanted to.

So you then have to ask the question - if the UK govt has the ability to act in the same way as Sweden and they don't, then who's fault is that? - The UK govt or the EU?

 

[JBR]

Well, except that Sweden has managed to use it's safeguard clauses that allows them to enact quotas, and they have time restrictions on living there without finding work, and the benefit entitlements are not the same.

Errrr a minor difference is that Sweden are a member of the EU and not the EFTA. As such they are subject to the same migration rules as the UK. They may well choose to implemently differently, but they are still bound by the same laws.

I don't know anything about Swedish migration rules, so can't comment on what they do or dont do - other than to say that if they are doing so it must be within the remit of EU laws.

That means the UK goverment could choose to apply the same rules too as Sweden if they wanted to.

Excellent! So we could stop immigration immediately and remain subservient to our EU masters in Brussels!

I think you should write to David Cameron and let him know straight away. He'd be overjoyed: he could keep the electorate happy and, as we all know, he'd be very happy to remain under the jackboot.