PP for BP replacement drive and creation of NEW hardstanding?

[mrelliott]

In the process of buying this property for elderly parents.
It's not located on a classified road.
Current owners have replaced the gravel and paving stone driveway and walled ?paving and gravel front garden since they bought in 2016.
The BP is only 1 brick below the DP course and best practice is 2 bricks.(see photo)
We have no reason to think it's permeable construction and there are no drains set into the BP.
No Planning permission.
There's a downspout on the front corner and also a semi circular area of slate to the right hand side of the BP but other than the drain for the bathroom waste water along the side of the house close to the garage door there's nothing else in the way of soakaway.
They haven't extended the dropped kerb beyond the original driveway.
The driveway once past the front corner of the house is too narrow for a car to park on (unless you can get out via the roof!) and would find it difficult to use the existing drop kerb to park 2 vehicles. Curently the owners must be bumping up over the kerb to park on the newly created area.
Following enquiry by solicitor re the construction of the BP the sellers have disclosed the name of the contractor who carried out the work but haven't offered details of a guarantee and say they don't have an invoice. Looking at the contractors website it states they provide a 10 yr guarantee against subsidence.

According to local council website they require everyone to contact the council if they intend to make any amendmenents to or create new driveways/parking areas, even if it subsequently doesn't require PP. They also say that when you apply for a license to drop a kerb for a new driveway/parking you have to submit evidence that the planning dep't have been contacted re the work.

Our concerns are
1. the height of the BP in relation to the DP, especially as there are no drains set into the BP and it doesn't seem to be permeable
2. whether the sellers contacted the council before the work
3. if when we contact the council to extend the drop kerb they'll say the BP isn't correctly constructed and should have had PP and tell us to rip the whole thing up which would be costly.
4. No documentation /guarantee

Is it worth contacting the council and asking solicitor to get the owners to verify with the company re the 10 yr guarantee ?

 

[mrelliott]

Anyone?

 

[Ian H]

I wouldn’t bother, it looks a good job and no flooding to be seen.

 

[tony1851]

If the bricks are of reasonably good quality (are any shaled near ground level?), the BP being within 1 course of the dpc shouldn't be a problem.

For the BP, it is of course necessary to apply for planning permission for any new hardstanding greater than 5 sq m and forward of the front elevation if it is not permeable or does not drain to a soakaway within the site. There is no obligation to inform the council if you enlarge a hardstanding, regardless of what it states on the website.

Planning permission is also required to widen an existing dropped kerb.

After 4 years has elapsed, the council can take no enforcement action on the BP, even though it doesn't comply. If you like the property and buy it, just keep quiet about the BP, and don't apply for a dropped kerb until after 4 years has elapsed since the BP was done (does the vendor have a receipt showing the date of the work?).

 

[mrelliott]

If the bricks are of reasonably good quality (are any shaled near ground level?), the BP being within 1 course of the dpc shouldn't be a problem.

For the BP, it is of course necessary to apply for planning permission for any new hardstanding greater than 5 sq m and forward of the front elevation if it is not permeable or does not drain to a soakaway within the site. There is no obligation to inform the council if you enlarge a hardstanding, regardless of what it states on the website.

Planning permission is also required to widen an existing dropped kerb.

After 4 years has elapsed, the council can take no enforcement action on the BP, even though it doesn't comply. If you like the property and buy it, just keep quiet about the BP, and don't apply for a dropped kerb until after 4 years has elapsed since the BP was done (does the vendor have a receipt showing the date of the work?).

Shaled? Bricks all look in good condition.
Seems to slope towards the drain that the guttering downspout on front corner of the house goes into.
No-apparently no receipts/invoices but they only bought the property in 2016.
Problem with waiting is that I'm not sure how well parents will get on turning off the road and bumping up/down the kerb. Had a wander round there to check that and the of the drive before the corner of the house (drive alongside the house is too narrow to park a car without creating difficulty getting in and out and walking access to the front door,plus the kerb is quite high. Not meaning to sounding harsh, in 2 years time the issue may be moot.

 

[lt8480]

If the road isn't classified/council owned/maintained then I assume it is a private road with communal maintenance cost. In which case I don't think the council can dictate dropped kerbs or alterations as you aren't altering a "highway" (but the private road owner / shared ownership structure may have restrictions).

For warranties/guarantees they aren't any use as you won't be able to use them... as there almost certainly won't be any third party rights or collateral warranties (only the original person contracting the works can make a claim under normal contract).

The works are more likely to be notifiable for building control than planning.

As long as all the drive slopes away from the house it is not too much of a problem, you could just take the edging blocks out around the house to get the 150mm. The 150mm in this instance is mainly designated as a "splash zone" and on a cavity wall is unlikely to cause any problems as water splashing up will contained to the outer leaf. Also as the bricks below the DPC look to match the house,I would expect them to be able to take water/frost attack etc. and the large eaves overhang will minimise splash in this area anyway.

 

[mrelliott]

The driveway definitely doesn't slope towards the road.Possibly the front area is sloping slightly to the left (towards the original driveway- which looking at the before photo where it looks like that area was higher than the drive makes sense). The drive definitely has a slight downslope. I understood (from the website of the contractor who did the work) that the purpose of the dark grey edging stones is to prevent the blocks moving but wonder how that works. Are they laid differently from the others?
We're wondering about an indemnity policy which would at least cover us against any enforcement but wouldn't solve the potential for run off towards the house and damp. Then I read that if there was an indemnity policy in place and we contacted the local council to ask for permission to drop the kerb the policy would be invalidated as we will be bringing the new block paving with no PP to the attention of the council.
Th

 

[tony1851]

If your road is not classified (or what they strangely call a "classified un-numbered road" - perhaps an avenue serving only local residents?) you would not need planning permission to lower the kerb, though you would probably need approval from the local Highways dept. Whether they would liase with Planning is anyone's guess.
An indemnity policy is void if the council is aware of the work; it would also only cover for legal expenses appealing an Enforcement Notice, not the cost of putting the work right

 

[lt8480]

Correct re the indemnity policy. But there's no need to ask for retrospective permission... the point of the indemnity is that you do nothing and then if the council raise as an issue the policy picks up the cost of the mess.

 

[Seafarer1966]

Lovely neat job. The new hardstanding/ drive doesn't need planning permission as it falls well within the Permitted Development rights applicable to residential dwellings. I don't care what the council website says about contacting them I wouldn't bother. If it doesn't need planning permission it doesn't need it. They have no powers to make you contact them and they can't enforce on something that doesn't need permission in the first place.

With regard to the dropped kerb issue Tony is correct in saying that this isn't a Planning issue. This a Highways Authority matter IF the road is an adopted highway. If the road is private you could ask the neighbours what the local arrangement/ procedures are.

 

[mrelliott]

Correct re the indemnity policy. But there's no need to ask for retrospective permission... the point of the indemnity is that you do nothing and then if the council raise as an issue the policy picks up the cost of the mess.

Yes, realise that it's either an indemnity policy or retrospective planning for the BP. I was talking about when we ask for permission to extend the dropped kerb

If your road is not classified (or what they strangely call a "classified un-numbered road" - perhaps an avenue serving only local residents?) you would not need planning permission to lower the kerb, though you would probably need approval from the local Highways dept. Whether they would liase with Planning is anyone's guess.
An indemnity policy is void if the council is aware of the work; it would also only cover for legal expenses appealing an Enforcement Notice, not the cost of putting the work right

This is what the council say
Vehicle access over kerbs

If you need to drive over the pavement or verge to park on your property, you need to apply for a licence to have a properly constructed crossing. You also need to re-apply if you want to extend an existing crossing.


Please follow the process below to apply for a licence.

Do I need planning permission?
You must apply for planning permission before you apply for a licence if:

• the access is on to a classified road (A, B or C road)
• you are also creating/amending a drive/hard standing within your property boundary

Applying for a licence
Please make sure you have read our

Dropped kerb licence conditions FAQs (PDF, 33.1kb) before applying.

• Request a dropped kerb
• 
  Privacy notice - roads (PDF, 32.9kb)

Note: there is a £140 licence fee.


What happens next?
After we receive your application, we will check to make sure the location isn't a problem.

If you are successful, you will receive a confirmation letter and will be required to pay the licence fee. You will also receive our approved contractors list - you must get the work done by one of these companies.

If you are unsuccessful, you will be told why, and no fee will be charged.

Getting the crossing built
Only contractors approved by us can carry out the work. Before starting work your contractor must:

• give us at least seven days notice of intention to start work so we can arrange inspection of the site
• contact our Street lighting and illuminated traffic signs team to determine whether any street lighting equipment is likely to be affected
• give notice to any companies who have pipes, cables etc in the area, e.g. gas, water, electricity, that may be affected
• comply with our work specification which will be issued when permission is granted

Once under construction, an inspector will visit the site to confirm the crossing is being built to our specification.

 

[tony1851]

@op; you are under no obligation to apply for planning permission for extending or altering the driveway within your property boundary; neither do you have to inform the council of your intention. Planning permission is only required if the proposed hard surfacing is non-porous, or does not drain to a porous area (eg a soakaway) within the curtilage. This is explained in F.2 of the Permitted Development rules, which clearly your council is unaware of.
Instead of applying for PP for an extension to the dropped kerb (and opening a can of worms) why not do what many people do and just get a piece of treated timber, such as a 9"x3", cut a chamfer along it, and put that against the kerb.?

 

[lt8480]

The "pavement or verge" is defined by where the "highway" is.

From what I can tell there is no legal definition of a highway but common law has established a "highway" to be where the public have the right to pass, so ownership of the road is not what defines this, but whether there is a right of way say down the private road.

If it is a cul-de-sac it is probably not classed as a highway and therefore your drive does not meet a highway and the council rules are not relevant. As where you "drive over the pavement or verge to park on your property" will be where the private road meets the highway (not your drive entrance).

If the road connects at each end to an adopted road, and the road has been built for some time, and there is no signage up saying private, and there are no barriers etc. then even if in private ownership it may still be deemed to be a highway.

If it is not a highway then consider then a lot more work is also deemed PD, the exact allowances would depend on orientation and proximity to an actual highway, however usually private roads/estates do have covenants in place that restrict people doing things that might annoy others who live down the road.

From looking at the photos why do you need to ask drop the kerb? There doesn't appear to be a raised kerb in existence. If its already done and you have an indemnity you don't need to ever ask for permission. You just deal with the matter through the indemnity if it is ever raised by the council later.

 

[napoleondynamite]

Hi all,

Not sure but the OP may be mixing up two requirements.

1. Unless the road is privately owned, it will be owned and maintained by the Highway authority. This applies to most non-main roads (i.e. unclassified roads). Any works to the pavement or road (e.g. a vehicular crossover) need to be carried out under license from the Highway Authority. You apply for a license, the Highway Authority may or may not grant this, if they do they will specify the requirement which need to be complied with.

2. Planning permission- which is a separate matter. Many driveway alterations can be carried out without planning permission, provided they do not involve significant level changes, and either use a porous solution or provide a run off within the site. See p48 of this document.


In this case resolving the Planning Permission issue could require, for example, adding a drainage gulley at the front of the driveway, if the driveway is not a porous one.

The licensing issue- you may be able to apply to the Highway Authority to resolve retrospectively- if the crossover is acceptable and has been constructed correctly presumably it stands a good chance of approval.

As has been said above, you could just do nothing, the driveway would gain immunity from Planning enforcement after 4 years. I'm not sure if a similar principle applies to the vehicular crossover / the need for a license to carry out the works.

 

[tony1851]

In this case resolving the Planning Permission issue could require, for example, adding a drainage gulley at the front of the driveway, if the driveway is not a porous one.

But where would that gulley discharge? Unless it discharged to some soakaway within the curtilage, it would presumably have to be connected to an existing surface water drain, and that would almost certainly be refused planning permission.