10 year or 4 year rule??

[indus]

Jeds, I've spoken to the owner again and he has council tax bills that read

1) Basement, 100 St Elsewhere Rd

2) First floor, 100 St Elsewhere Rd

etc.

The people who lived in the basement and on the first floor both did so for over thirty years.

He has rent books etc.

Surely this should be enough it to prove they were lawfully used as flats?

Thanks again

 

[chapeau]

Flats would be four years - an HMO is ten years.

Where do you get that from?

 

[jeds]

It would be clearer if it said first floor flat - second floor flat etc. But it might be enough to pursued the planners. Why has it become an issue. Are they selling up?

 

[indus]

Yes, the owner is selling and I am thinking of buying. However I need to convert it into three proper flats for it to make sense. It is of no use as a large family house as it is on a busy main road and just too big as a single dwelling for that area

The building is in an area that the planners have defined as a 'conversion restriction zone' so ordinarily conversions would be resisted. So the only way to have it converted is if lawful use can be proven.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks again

 

[jeds]

In that case you'll want to obtain a certificate of lawfulness. The only thing to lose is you might alert planners of an existing breach - but I suppose that's the sellers problem. Only other thing that comes to mind is; will it actually look like self contained flats when inspected by a planner?

 

[indus]

Hi Jeds

It's for sale at auction so any problem will be mine not the sellers!

I suppose I could make it look self contained before the planners visit??


I would have council tax bills and rent books to back up my claim that it has been used long term as separate units.

 

[chapeau]

To be flats they have to be self contained.

Yep

Technically speaking a house sub-divided into self contained flats is also an HMO because the definition of an HMO is any house that was once a single house now occupied by more than one houshold.

Nope, that's not what the definition of an HMO is.

What is an HMO?:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...ading/meaning-of-house-in-multiple-occupation

That's quite complex - but if the house was converted to flats, the construction of which satisfied "“appropriate building standards”, they are not HMOs.

“appropriate building standards” is defined in the law, basically building regs.

Now, the question still stands. Where does it say that flats are subject to the four year rule, and HMO's subject to the ten year rule?

 

[indus]

Chapeau, are you saying that unless I can prove the existing subdivisions were self contained then despite council tax bills, rent books etc I will not get a lawful development recognition of them being flats?

Thanks

 

[tony1851]

Chapeau;
In a much earlier post, I stated that converting a house into self-contained flats was a change of use and therefore came under the ten-year rule rather than the four-year rule.

Everyone said 'no', so on the basis that the majority is always right, I kept out. Are you in effect saying that the 10-year rule applies?

 

[jeds]

Tony, don't get drawn into this. Self contained flats would be four years. I've done dozens of CoLs on self contained flats and it is clear. See Van dyck v sec of state for details. HMOs are less clear. There are contradictory appeal decisions but the general consensus is that they differ because of the different planning unit. Single houses are C3 and HMOs are C4. That more clearly defines a change of use and puts it into the ten year rule.

I knew the mention of HMO and self contained flats might confuse the issue but there are people on here that like to google stuff and throw up tiny technical red herrings that don't add anything but just confuse matters. So mentioning it might give people the little idea they need or not mentioning it might give them the little opening to confuse things. Either way you can't win.

The important thing is that sub-division to flats would be four years. Change of use to HMO would be ten years. The rest is bo*locks.

 

[tony1851]

Tony, don't get drawn into this bo*locks.

I'll stick to beams and brickwork !!

 

[noseall]

The rest is bo*locks.

Of which Chapoo is an expert.