2/3 way switching to follow

[JohnW2]

My words too. The first time I came across the conversion method I said "On dear me I wonder how this circuit works?"... Or was it more like "What the...?" It must have been one of those options.

Same here. In fact, the first time I saw a diagram of the 'conversion method', I was initially (albeit fairly briefly) convinced that it "couldn't possibly work" (and, even then, I initially thought it was probably only appropriate for 'converting' previously 1-way switching).

As an AV guy who must have worked on hundreds of AFILS I know all about the problem

As I conceded, that's the context ion which it could be an issue.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Same here. In fact, the first time I saw a diagram of the 'conversion method', I was initially (albeit fairly briefly) convinced that it "couldn't possibly work" (and, even then, I initially thought it was probably only appropriate for 'converting' previously 1-way switching).
As I conceded, that's the context ion which it could be an issue.

Kind Regards, John

My first was for a builder who had cut a door opening in a wall and the second switch had gone with the rubble, not understanding the wiring I converted the replacement system to conventional with a connector behind the remaining switch. Then later sat with pencil and paper...

 

[SUNRAY]

In the end the site was not available on Monday, 8PM Friday was when they wanted me in.

The back story is the builder took switches and sockets off and made notes of how they were connected, The original terminal numbers and wire colours but no indication of cables. Excuse my additional notes in black.

When I arrived with my colleague I found (for safety) he had connected the '3 power in' cables connected to L1 & L2 terminals in the replacement 3G switch, leaving the lamps and strappers disconnected in the left switch. The whole of the right switch was terminated but with errors. Other than identifying the live cables he had not tried to prove what the other cables are.
The 3 feeds are on different phases.

We proved and marked the cables, confusion crept in as there is an intermediate in the harmonised strappers (not shown in sketch) and of course it was in the 'operated' position, reversing the black and grey.
Comparing with the DB listings it was then easy to wire as:

Connectors shown as pink stars.

Simple once there but difficult over the phone, especially as he confused me by calling them 3 way and Chicago/California method.

 

[ericmark]

I can see your problem, and I have argued what is two way, and what is three way?
I would have said if you can put a switch in one of two positions it is two way, but that is not correct, not only must it have two positions but both positions must conduct power either to one terminal or another, so a three position switch with centre off is not a three way switch, and there is not way through switch in centre position. It is just a two way switch.

So a rotary switch off, low, med high as used with a fan is four position but three way.

In other words the two way refers to type of switch, not how it is used. A switch which works two lights wait and enter is a two way switch. But not what we consider as a two way lighting circuit. To get a single light to work with two switches there are two basic methods, in school I was shown this

the problem is to use it means a connector block in the switch, so we have used this

but today we seem to be moving yet again this

with a slave terminal seems to be the new method, which allows the dimming to be controlled from either switch, or in this case also can use a remote control or hub and internet control. The main problem is

IMPORTANT:The Master and Slave units will NOT operate with any other manufacturer’s switches in a two way configuration. Doing so will permanently damage the switch units.

it seems gone are the days of mix and match.

 

[JohnW2]

Simple once there but difficult over the phone, especially as he confused me by calling them 3 way and Chicago/California method.

Is/was he American (or, at least someone who reads too much US material!) ? ....

I can see your problem, and I have argued what is two way, and what is three way?
I would have said if you can put a switch in one of two positions it is two way, but that is not correct, not only must it have two positions but both positions must conduct power either to one terminal or another, ....

There is a transatlantic difference in terminology, which applies to the "type of switching arrangement" as well as the nature of the switches - but the difference is not really anything to do with the issue you mention...

1. I'm not sure of the reason, but what we call "2-way switching" (using two 1p2w switches), the Americans call "three way switching" (and call the 1p2w switches "3-way" ones.
2. I suppose 'following' from the above, when one or more intermediate switches are added, the Americans call that "4-way switching" (and call the intermediate switches "4-way" ones).

The nearest (but not very 'near'!) I can think of as an explanation for the American usage of "3-way" and "4-way" (and I suspect also "2-way") switches/switching is that the numbers refer to the number of (used) terminals on the switches.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

The Americans always want what they have to be bigger and better than anyone else's. And they use an old form of English, still use words we no longer use, except for some specials, like the name of the hoop we sit on to do needle work, we still use old name for that, but with anything else considered rude.

When working an American cars I had problems working out what they called things, a track rod is a push pull bar, OK we know fender and hood, but some many other words as well.

So what is the difference in a reversing switch and an intermediate switch and a change over switch? And that is still in the UK.

 

[JohnW2]

... When working an American cars I had problems working out what they called things ...

Yes, I can believe that. Mind you, in many cases the US words (and spellings) are arguably more 'logical' than the corresponding English word/spelling - but that certainly does not seem to be the case with switches/switching!

So what is the difference in a reversing switch and an intermediate switch and a change over switch? And that is still in the UK.

I think that many/most of these words are open to misinterpretation. When I want to be totally clear, I would always use the X-pole Y-way" (or things like "X-pole, 2-way, centre-off" etc.). I never use (and am not used to seeing) "reversing switch" and, to me, "changeover switch" means an X-pole 2-way one (maybe with 'centre off'), not an intermediate one (albeit a 2p2w switch can be 'used as' an intermediate switch {but not vice versa}).

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

American cars

are required to drive on the pavement.

 

[SUNRAY]

Is/was he American (or, at least someone who reads too much US material!) ? ....
There is a transatlantic difference in terminology, which applies to the "type of switching arrangement" as well as the nature of the switches - but the difference is not really anything to do with the issue you mention...

1. I'm not sure of the reason, but what we call "2-way switching" (using two 1p2w switches), the Americans call "three way switching" (and call the 1p2w switches "3-way" ones.
2. I suppose 'following' from the above, when one or more intermediate switches are added, the Americans call that "4-way switching" (and call the intermediate switches "4-way" ones).

Kind Regards, John

He is Polish, other than his Polish company being removed from him (not quite at gun point) and coming to UK some 15 years ago I don't know too much about him.

Since the phone call last week I searched for 3 way switching and yes it does seem the number of terminals on a switch in America gives it it's name; 2, 3, 4 and even a 5 & 6 way. In the meantime I've learned just how p155 poor their accessories and wiring techniques are.

 

[JohnW2]

He is Polish, other than his Polish company being removed from him (not quite at gun point) and coming to UK some 15 years ago I don't know too much about him.

Fair enough. It could be that, in this context, anything non-British counts as "American" - just in the same way that, once upon a time, people in all sorts of dusty corners of the world who learned English as a 'second language' actually learned 'American English' (including accent), since their main source of education was listening to the Voice of America radio broadcasts (and quite possibly still similar today, thanks to 'American movies'!).

Since the phone call last week I searched for 3 way switching and yes it does seem the number of terminals on a switch in America gives it it's name; 2, 3, 4 and even a 5 & 6 way.

Indeed - although it still seems a bit 'perverse' (and potentially confusing) to then use the terminology "X-way".
Edit: having read what I just wrote, I hope I happily accept the concept of an "X-way" connector, so maybe it's perhaps not quite as 'perverse' as I first thought - but there is still the issue that, at least in UK English, "-way" has a very specific meaning (not directly equivalent to the number of terminals) in relation to switches.

In the meantime I've learned just how p155 poor their accessories and wiring techniques are.

Yes, they are certainly 'interesting'. I suppose that, in developing their accessories and practices (and, indeed, regulations/'Codes') they may have been a little complacent because at least some (but by no means all) of the voltages they deal with are less than in most other places.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

are required to drive on the pavement.

Well yes, Blaw-Knox and Barber Greene have been making paver's for years, a surfaced road or path is a pavement, however it seems Flintshire County Council for one have a problem with English, with signs like do not ride bikes on the walkway, or pavement when today both the roadway and walkway and cycle track are paved.

There is just into Cheshire a cycle and walking route which is boarded as it crosses a marsh, so a board walk. And Chester has the rows where pedestrians are kept out of the street mud and traffic, but Flintshire uses this

sign which means cyclists must use the raised pavement but don't bother marking the demarcation between walkers and riders, it must be a Welsh thing.

 

[bernardgreen]

American electricity supplies use a lot of tin can transformers. Often a tin can for every 2 or 3 houses

And a pole with no tin cans

 

[SUNRAY]

As an AV guy who must have worked on hundreds of AFILS I know all about the problem

As I conceded, that's the context ion which it could be an issue.
Kind Regards, John

One of the funnies I found a solution for; We installed a sizeable AV system in a finance houses London office board room. As such it had a selection of different links to the outside world and one of their requirements on the AMX touch screen was a 'Secrecy' button which isolated all external communications.

All fully commissioned and demonstrated to the customer and verified secrecy worked on all of the links and then Sunray mentioned AFILS and walked the 2 corridors and office surrounding the room. The main corridor found some patches where it was detectable. Fortunately the walls were steel stud and plaster board and corridor the side hadn't been boarded so I added a wire loop and fed it with ½λ rectified DC at a level that defeated the overspill from the AFILS and even added a detector coil which fed back to the AMX to confirm the signal.

 

[FrodoOne]

American electricity supplies use a lot of tin can transformers. Often a tin can for every 2 or 3 houses

And a pole with no tin cans

I strongly suspect that what is described in the second above illustration as "SECONDARY ELECTRICS 115/230 Volts" is NOT both of those voltages.

While the "usual" practice in North America is to supply each "premise" with a single phase 240 V secondary supply, "split" by using an Earthed/Neutral Centre Tap from a single transformer - so that there are two supplies of 120 V out-of-phase by 180 degrees - (as illustrated in the first picture), in some cases what is supplied is 2 out of 3 phases of 120 V secondary supplies (relative to the Earth/Neutral) - so that the supply derived from between two of these phases (out-of-phase by 120 degrees) is (only) 208 V.

 

[SUNRAY]

I strongly suspect that what is described in the second above illustration as "SECONDARY ELECTRICS 115/230 Volts" is NOT both of those voltages.

While the "usual" practice in North America is to supply each "premise" with a single phase 240 V secondary supply, "split" by using an Earthed/Neutral Centre Tap from a single transformer - so that there are two supplies of 120 V out-of-phase by 180 degrees - (as illustrated in the first picture), in some cases what is supplied is 2 out of 3 phases of 120 V secondary supplies (relative to the Earth/Neutral) - so that the supply derived from between two of these phases (out-of-phase by 120 degrees) is (only) 208 V.

I may very well be completely off piste here but AIUI the 208V is normally only used as an alternative to 240V when the customer has a 3 phase installation as 2 (Split) phase and 3 phase is not supposed to be installed in the same building. My knowledge on this particular snippet is from from GI's,mid 80's who seemed keen to assist with rewireing my first house purchase and during a lot of conversation over cans of the offered bud's.