Aerial Advice

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Hi All,

I'm cheesed off with paying Virgin £50/month for cable, phone and broadband. I can get TalkTalk for £5/month plus line rental BUT I no longer have a functioning aerial. I'd like to fit my own. Here's what I know;
Aerials themselves are cheap at Screwfix, so are mounting kits
Roof mount is best, loft is OK
Main transmitters are better than relays
I am 16 miles as the crow flies from my nearest main transmitter but here's the good bit. I can see it clearly with zero obstructions, even just from the first floor back wall let alone the roof. It's on Caradon Hill and I'm on the highest spot in Plymouth.

Come on experts.....what do I need to buy and how can I get this project off the ground? I hate TV anyway - it's for the missus really. Any crappy free to air stuff will do so long as it has Beeb 1 and 2 and Corrie.
 
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Caradon Hill is a Group A transmitter. That means that all the frequencies it transmits are in the lower half of the frequency band, and that's where the majority of the aerials at Screwfix don't work that well. [Conclusion 1 - Screwfix isn't the best place to buy an aerial for your local transmitter]

Of the aerials at Screwfix that might be suitable (the Log Periodics), the closest they have is a short-ish length Log with a 16dB amp (Labgear 27885LAB) but (a) it's shorter than a conventional Log Periodic so won't pull in as much signal before amplification, and (b) if you're as close to Caradon and with good line of sight as you say then you definitely don't need a masthead amp, so that aerial begins to look very expensive for your needs [Conclusion 2 - Screwfix isn't the cheapest place to buy an aerial for your local transmitter because their selection is limited]

Outdoor chimney mount is my preference but I wouldn't buy/use the type of bracket that Screwfix sells. I've been to enough installs to replace this kind of bracket along with the aerial. The problem is they're small and they don't spread the load over a big enough area and so overtime they move with wind pressure on the aerial and wreck the pointing. Ergo: cheap bracket that destroys brickwork and causes hundreds of £££'s worth of water damage isn't a good buy. Their wall fixing kit is one of the cheapest it's possible to buy as well. There's not enough length on the arms to clear most eves, so it will end up fixed to the soffit which isn't that strong a place to fix to for something that undergoes a bit of wind loading. The U bolts look weedy too. The result is that you'll overtighten the U bolts to compensate and so crush their thin alloy 1.8 mtr mast in the process. Sooner or later that mast will bend and snap. [Conclusion 3 - Screwfix's bracket range will end up costing you dear in remedial work and replacements]

Other observations:
(1) Most of their aerials are mis-described - There's no 19 or 48 element aerials on that site, they're counting elements twice or four times to come up with those numbers. It is the equivalent of saying you drive a ten wheeled car because there are four rims + 4 tyres on the road plus a rim and a tyre in the boot. Utterly ridiculous

(2) Next, those aerials such as the Labgear TV Aerial High Gain 48-Element aren't suitable for outdoor use. The reflector (the big rectangular section at the back) has no support between the fins. Birds will land on it and bend them partly because they're not supported by the neighbouring fins and partly because they're made of very thin bent bits of aluminium for cheapness so they're not that strong. Again it's a case of buy cheap, buy twice

(3) Screwfix aerial and satellite cable is crap. The best they have is Labgear PF100 which uses aluminium plasti-foil and a relatively weak outer jacket. What happens is that the jacket cracks due to weathering and then water gets in to the cable. There's a reaction between the copper and aluminium that then eats both. The result is a worsening signal until the point where it goes completely because the electrial earthing circuit breaks down. You'll then go nuts trying to work out why there's no telly picture, she'll be nagging you, and eventually you'll stump up for a whole replacement aerial and cable again (possibly with the same type of cable) when spending an extra £4 on some Webro WF100 would have prevented all that hassle. Oh, don't even bother with RG6, that's really poor stuff.


I use Screwfix a lot for my electrical supplies and tools, but they're not the best place (or even the right place) to buy aerials and associated ancillaries. They sell gear to electricians who think "aerials is easy money" or "how hard can it be?" but the gear they sell is poorly specified and there's no advice in store to help the hapless trade or DIYer when it all goes wrong.


If I was in your shoes I would buy a Vision V10-036 Log Periodic aerial, an 8" galvanised lashing cradle, a lashing kit, a 6ft 1.25" (32mm diameter) alloy mast, an F connector (for cable to aerial joint), a Belling-Lee TV aerial plug (from cable to TV), and some WF100 coax cable plus any cable clips you might need. My bet is that being so close to the transmitter and with such good line of sight that you'll get a tonne of signal with just this simple and inexpensive set up, and it'll last years too.


Loft mounting - Yes, it can be done (use the same aerial as above) but you'll have to spend a lot more time testing the various places in the loft to get good signal. It's not always where you think is obvious. Also be prepared to spend some time rejigging the install if you lose signal in the rain.
 
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Remember the old days when the local TV dealer only stocked aerials that matched the local transmitter(s).
Nope, that's before my time; or at least as far as my own experience goes working in electrical retail from 1987 onwards. You raise a valid point though, local knowledge is gold.

The idea that there can be a one-size-fits-all solution for everything, and that everything can be sold by any man, it's all seriously misguided. I wonder how much money is wasted in the UK every year from botched or failed DIY projects? If I had my way then every retailer selling any electrical / audio visual / aerial product would have to demonstrate that their sales staff had a basic grasp of the fundamental knowledge required to answer customer question both pre- and post-sale.

We have the Consumer Right Act which replaced the Sale of Goods Act (SOGA) last year, and there's the Distance Selling Regulations (DSR), both of which give consumers protection after the sale, but there's nothing in law AFAIK that says to the customer "Here, you can trust this retailer. They know what they're doing and their advice and back-up can be relied upon." Instead what we have is all the protection based on fixing a problem after it has occurred. That's backwards. What's the phrase? A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Of course seeing as we are metric then it should be "28.3495 grams of prevention is worth 453.592 grams of cure" but that doesn't have quite the same ring, does it ;) :D
 
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If you were going to go with the Loft install and wanted to take some hassle out of getting the right direction then Fringe Electronics offer either a standard signal finder which can be left in-line or an amplifier with built in signal finder, variable boost and the ability to distribute the signal to up to 4 locations. These make getting the aerial set-up in the right location a doddle.

This would also help if for some reason you had to get back up in the loft and change the direction at a later date.
 
Bernard green is right about the losses from leaving the meter permanently in line. For DIY use the Fringe meters are much better than those £10-£15 meters with about 5 LEDS. Those ones are horribly insensitive to the point where they're pretty much useless for most people.

If you are loft mounting then an alternative is to take up a small TV with a signal strength and quality display. The TV should be tuned from a friends/neighbours aerial first.
 
Thanks for all the advice already, especially to Lucid for what must have taken some time and effort to put together. It is much appreciated even if some of the detail is lost on a newbie to the world of aerials. From your advice it actually looks like a relatively simple job, if you overlook the business of scrambling up to the chimney stack with a bag of tools. The aerial you mention Lucid, the Vision V10-036 seems a steal at £17.99 online so this job may not be so expensive after all. You say that it should be fine as I am quite close to the transmitter but I am 16 miles away. Maybe that does count as quite close, I'm not sure. I did some research and I see that there aren't actually that many of them so maybe I am after all. I checked locally and virtually all of the aerials in my area are pointed in that direction, especially on top of the hill we are on so that seems the way to go. Easy enough to set up on a clear day or better still evening when the mast lights come on. I've browsed through the site you link to and found the mast, mast cap, lashing kit and lashing cradle thingy. The cable seems like it'll cost more than the rest of the kit put together but that's often the way. One or two more questions spring to mind...

1 - How best to route the cable from the aerial mounted on the chimney to get it into the house? Once off the roof obviously cable clips but I have a Marley tiled roof and you can't cable clip onto that.

2 - Could I split the feed from this aerial to serve a second TV in a bedroom and how would I do this?

Great work so far chaps - keep it coming :)

Thanks
 
You're welcome, but can I ask that you also use the Thanks button on each and every post you find valuable. If you don't know where to find it simply hover your mouse near where it says + Multi-quote Quote at the bottom right of my replies; you'll see the Thanks button appear. Click on it to add your thanks for that particular post and do the same on each of the replies that gave you valuable information. This costs you nothing, but it's like a vote of confidence in the info that those of us helping you are providing. Please continue to use it in all future dealings on this forum site (y) BTW, I just gave you a Thanks and broke your cherry :D

Okay, on to your latest questions...

Distance to transmitter: Caradon is one of the country's main high-power transmitters. You are about 16 miles from it with a clear line of sight. My local transmitter is Winter Hill which is another one of the main transmitters. It transmits at about the same power levels but I am twice the distance away (31 miles in my case). Although the landscape is fairly flat between my place and the transmitter it is too far away to be seen with the naked eye from my roof. I am using a Log Periodic aerial on my roof. There is no amplifier attached; it's simply the coax cable direct off the roof of my two story house down to the TV in the lounge. If I bring up the tuning menu on my TV it gives a display for two things about the signal. The first (and most important) is Signal Quality (Q). The second (and least important) is Signal Strength (S). I have 80-90% Quality on all the channels I can receive. The strength is so high that I could quite easily split two ways with a simple passive Y splitter (see 2-way passive splitter (connectors are threaded) ). The one in the link is an indoor type. There are versions of this designed for outdoors use so either option is open to you. Now, because you're closer than me, and you have direct line of sight, your TV aerial should pick up a lot more signal than I get...all other things being equal. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't fit a two-way splitter and feed both TVs from the one aerial with just a passive splitter.

While on the subject of splitters, there's a right place and a wrong place to use these. The right place is as close to the two TVs as it's possible to get. IOW you want the longest run of cable down from the aerial to the splitter, then shorter runs from the splitter to the two TVs. This will give you the cleanest signal.


Aerial cable on roofs: The wire used to lash the bracket to the chimney will probably be longer than you need unless you have some kind of huge Victorian chimney stack. You'll cut off the excess. I use the remnants to make wire loops to hold the cable in place down or across a roof if I can't get it in to the roof space. You slide these loops under the tiles and then the weight of the tile holds them in place. Have a look at this page and scroll down to see pictures.



Remember that Thanks button :whistle:
 
Thanks Sam but in layman's terms what's the difference between the A2 and the AF? I'm leaning toward the chimney mount option rather than the loft so size is maybe not critical. Also why are some labelled 'DIY' on Satcure? Is it because F-connectors are not something an amateur would easily be able to attach a cable to - issues with attaching the relevant male/female connector to the cable without specialist tools maybe?
 
Read the page I linked to. Especially the note labelled "IMPORTANT". It's all explained.
 
If Sam Gangee doesn't mind, this might help explain some of it.

The Group A Log Periodic aerial picks up a narrow band of frequencies that matches the range from the Caradon transmitter. It is 'deaf' to signals further up the frequency range. This sort of selective reception can have benefits in areas where a house is located in the overlap area between two transmitters on the same polarisation.

A standard Log Periodic aerial is capable of picking up the entire frequency range. In my case I pick up North West TV in the Granada region from Winter Hill, but also some transmissions from the Emley Moor transmitter over in the Yorkshire TV region (YTV). That's not a particular problem though because after tuning the TV I then select which region has preference and so the TV forgets about the YTV stations. In some areas of the country that sort of thing is not so easy to do, so a Grouped Log aerial makes selecting the reception from a preferred transmitter easier to do. The same thing can be accomplished with filters that only pass certain frequencies.

The graphic below shows the Group A Log in red and the wideband T Log in black. At the bottom of the image you'll see the TV transmission range given in channels (21-68). Channels 60-68 are no longer used for TV; they've been sold off to the mobile phone companies for 4G. A wideband 'T' Log Periodic aerial is designed to pick up from channel 21 to ch 60. You can also see the other groups, some of which predate the 4G sell-off. You don't need to spend any time getting your head around the other groups as they're not relevant to your needs.

The other thing you can see in the graphic is the scale on the left edge. The Group T Log produces more signal because the aerial is longer.

Grouped Logs.png



The thing about A2 and AF is how the wire attaches to the aerial. F connectors are really easy to fit. Just follow the instructions on the Satcure site. The difference between the aerials is where the cable with the F connector plugs in to the aerial. The A2 is a bit cheaper because there's a little more work for the purchaser/installer to do to fit the down lead.
 
Thanks again. Some of this is now beginning to make good sense. The range of frequencies in the chart above seems to correlate with something stored in my old brain from the very distant past. 21-68 looks like the upper and lower limits on the ancient monochrome Bush CRT TV I had as a kid. These were the numbers, or close to, that were at opposite ends of the tuning dial scale.
Lucid: I lived in South Lincs as a kid and we could pick and choose regions too. Here in Plymouth I suspect that it is unlikely now. I'm used to watching London news as one of my TVs currently runs on FilmOn and Chromecast as there is no aerial nearby. Come to think of it if I could get the wife to be a bit more tech-savvie I could avoid the whole aerial thing. I watched a tiny amount of TV and FilmOn is good enough for me, plus BBC Iplayer etc.
 
I suggested the "Group A" version because it's shorter (lower wind resistance and easier to handle on a ladder) and because the 1dB difference in gain probably won't matter since the Caradon Hill signal is adequate. Also because, in the near future, the 4G phone band is going down to UHF CH50 so the "Group A" aerial will have better immunity from interference.
 

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