Alpha Flow Smart package vs pressurised cylinder system

[Chan1]

I have been planning to get an Alpha flow-Smart 25 package (combi + gas saver + 25l store) as part of energy efficient refurbishment of my Mum's house.

Seems on the face of it like a clever little system to get decent dhw flow rates and good energy efficiency at the same time. (Have looked at various test and simulation results and, though I am duly cautious of potentially overstated savings, there seems to be some merit at least)

Looking at prices (around £2k - ish for Flow Smart package), I'm wondering how this package compares value-wise with a pressurised system boiler and cylinder set-up.

I can't imagine there's much between the two approaches, in which case I'd err towards the Flow Smart on energy efficiency grounds. Am I missing something major in terms of performance and/or quality?

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 105431]

Look at the Vaillant ecotecplus 937 and the glow worm xtramax he. Both are better (and more compact) than your alpha solution imho. Make sure you have an adequate cold mains supply and the gas pipework is adequately sized though.

 

[Trundles Tricks]

Don't know about this set up, but we work for a large local authority and out of about 25 Alpha combis fitted as a trial before a massive renewal programme most of them have leaked all over the place well inside a year from installation.

Cue Alpha being dropped from the tender list a bit sharpish.

 

[Deleted member 105431]

Don't know about this set up, but we work for a large local authority and out of about 25 Alpha combis fitted as a trial before a massive renewal programme most of them have leaked all over the place well inside a year from installation.

Cue Alpha being dropped from the tender list a bit sharpish.

Alpha's are not known for their durability imo. Paul Barker may disagree.

 

[spacethegas]

as do i.

 

[BigBurner]

The Flowsmart is a decent system.

 

[Paul Barker]

Alpha's are not known for their durability imo. Paul Barker may disagree.

I don't see how any other system can be as good as one which incorperates the gassaver. I believe Viesman also use it is that right?

It is well known that installers have to check unions inside and outside Alphas for tightness.

When I was service agent I never went to any leaks on new range which weren't due to installers.

Although it was very new when I was in the last throws and they were so relaible after the initial batch of pcb's were replaced never to show faults again, that I hardly got a job. The Wilo pump connectior was poor it had to be pushed in.

They probably made a mistake going for the plastic hydroblock that will surely pinhole in time.

But a relaible brand they certainly are. If bg had fitted as many Alphas as they did Ideals I would be a very happy bunny now. But they probably wouldn't be in need of me if that were the case.

They say if you are going to make a living as a service agent you have to pick a poor boiler bvrand. I nearly went broke.

Wheereas our local Ariston guy has pulled so much of his hair out he has hardly any left. Rumour has it he just turns his phone on twice a day he has so much work.

I would buy into any of the Alpha stuff they are a good inovative company who spearheaded most of the inovations in the heating trade which the bigger boys copied afterwards. They are well run look after installers don't drop them in the dirt with customers over small matters which bigger manufacturers service guys are welll known for doing.

Yet the actual manufacturer of their brand is Immergas one of the largest heating manufacturers in Europe. So you buy into a big player but benefit from family style organisation and innovative thinking.

Alpha could improve themselves even further by importing and branding the Nephit range now that Worcester instead of learning from the superior sister company have done their level best to kill it off.

 

[Chan1]

thanks for your thought people.

Paul Barker - it sounds like you are very familiar with Alpha's. What would you recommend to avoid the problems of installation issues that you mention? - my plumber seems reasonably knowledgeable, but this just a one-off house installation and I've no idea how to make sure he has done it right in advance.

So, is everyone more or less saying that combi set up has equal advantages to system boiler set-up, but watch out for leaky installation

Does the water and gad supply issues apply less to a system boiler?

Thanks

 

[BigBurner]

I would buy into any of the Alpha stuff they are a good inovative company who spearheaded most of the inovations in the heating trade which the bigger boys copied afterwards.

They put the cyclone filter on the return, but what else did they innovate? Ariston are stock standard Italian parts. Once again most faults are installer related.

 

[gas4you]

Paul, my cousin had a new condensing Alpha fitted just over a year ago.

It has broken down 8 times since new. Latest was the fan. Only took 4 working days to get parts and fix

In fairness though our local Alpha agents are carp

Before anyone asks, she didn't want to pay my prices

 

[harrypotterton]

These new alpha boilers are some of the best around at the moment,i have fitted plenty all trouble free and you get a great warranty.
we had been fitting Vaillants for over 20 years which many installers consider to be the rolls royce so it had to be agood boiler to make us switch.

 

[Paul Barker]

I would buy into any of the Alpha stuff they are a good inovative company who spearheaded most of the inovations in the heating trade which the bigger boys copied afterwards.

They put the cyclone filter on the return, but what else did they innovate?

First put with Plume diversion.

First to adopt gassaver

first to store all the solar water and divert to alternative source only when insufficient solar for which they won an award.

 

[Paul Barker]

Paul, my cousin had a new condensing Alpha fitted just over a year ago.

It has broken down 8 times since new. Latest was the fan. Only took 4 working days to get parts and fix

In fairness though our local Alpha agents are carp

Before anyone asks, she didn't want to pay my prices

You have said it yourself might be the local agents mishandling it.

 

[BigBurner]

I would buy into any of the Alpha stuff they are a good inovative company who spearheaded most of the inovations in the heating trade which the bigger boys copied afterwards.

They put the cyclone filter on the return, but what else did they innovate?

First put with Plume diversion.

Pretty obvious thing to do.

First to adopt gassaver

...which they did not invent and other were looking at it too.

first to store all the solar water and divert to alternative source only when insufficient solar for which they won an award.

Which is not new. They have a wax diverter valve set to 60C to send to the inlet of a combi or sent to the taps, if above 60C. This was done with motorised diverter valves and probe pipe stats on many solar systems.

Will Alpha sell the solar diverter valve separtely? I think Oventrop make a similar valve.

 

[Norcon]

Did some research on this recently.. Here are my findings.

I contacted WRc-NSF who are one of the largest testing and certification organisations for water in the world and posted this question..........


Are TMV's suitable to operate as diverting valves ?.

There are a two types of blending valves, there are Thermostatic valves that comply with BS EN 1111 and BS EN 1287, these devices are for terminal fitting use i.e. use within 2 metres of the terminal fitting. There are then tempering valves which look exactly the same as Thermostatic valves and have the same operation but are manufactures to comply with BS EN 15092 and are predominantly for use at either the boiler or at the outlet from a hot water cylinder. Tempering valves are always set at a higher mixed water temperature usually 55 where as thermostatic valves at the terminal outlets will be set at a maximum of 46C. Both types of valve mix the hot and cold water to give a predetermined hot water temperature at the valve outlet.
So in answer to your question tempering valves complying with BS EN 15092 can be installed at the boiler but only for controlling the outlet temperature they are not designed to operate as diverters and should not therefore be used in this way.

This is Horne's response............

Thank you for your enquiry to our web site. TMVs can be used in reverse
for limiting or diverting applications but it is unlikely that a
standard valve could be used without some sort of modification. If you
have any detail on the application we would be happy to comment. We do
make limiting valves specifically for diverting flows to or away from
the heater but these are not specialized for solar - though it is an
area that interests us since solar and thermostatic are technologies
that are well suited.

Response from Altecnic Ltd............

It is not normal for a TMV to be used as a diverter within a boiler however a company that we know do use them in conjunction with Solar panels and combi boilers to divert water between the boiler and the solar units but this is a specialised system and would not be used in just a combi boiler.
It could be that the boiler manufacturer is taking the hot water from the boiler and reducing the temperature within the boiler so as to protect the customer from scalding so it would appear as if it was a diverter valve, you would need to contact the manufacturer of the boiler to see why they are using the TMV in the boiler.

Oventrop Three-way diverting ”Tri -D” PN 16 - flat sealing - valve is available and suitable for diverting and changingover of the flow in bivalent heating systems or hot water storage cylinders, e.g. solar heating and heatpump installations. Temperature of fluid up to 120°; for short periods up to 140 °C.
Taconova approve the use of their MT 52 HC Thermostatic Mixing Valve as a diverting valve........
http://www.taconova.co.uk/dataframe.htm
However the maximum temperature on the piston for this valve is 70c so that would possibly rule out its use on a solar system.
I think most tmv's can be used as divertors. ESBE give detailed information on the use of their valves for solar diverting applications with temperatures up to 95c.
http://infoweb.esbe.se/files/52226/Katalogdel_Termo_GB_99500300_B.pdf

Atmos supply a package also.... These valves are fitted against the flow arrows !.
http://www.atmos.uk.com/core_files/productDoc(114).pdf