Applying for a CLD for an HMO

[frank999]

Hi,
I wish to apply for a Certificate of Lawful Development (Existing Use) for a Small HMO, since a local Article 4 direction was recently brought in.

After 4 separate conversations with the council I am left with conflicting periods on how far back I need to go to prove the existing use ... some are saying its ten years, some are saying it is 4 years.

After speaking to a Specialist on this subject he claims it is 4 years - as Permitted Development rights were granted from the 01/10/2010 for small HMO's, the Article 4 Direction came into being on 29/05/2016. He states that its use back then had PD, and so planning permission was not required ... and the period to prove is 4 years, and not 10.

Can anyone comment please one which they think is correct, 4 or ten years - and any official notes online they could point me too - to show the council would be helpful.

Thanks

 

[^woody^]

I don't understand the relevance you are putting on the 4/10 year periods.

If your development was done under PD, and met the PD criteria, then its PD and immune from enforcement, and you only need to prove that the development was implemented and in use before the PD rights were removed. What does your specialist specialise in, as it might not be planning issues?

If you are saying that the development did not meet the PD criteria, and was never PD, and you now want a LDC to prevent enforcement, then its ten years, as per Murfitt v Secretary of State for the Environment 1980, and Welwyn Hatfield Council v Secretary of State for. Communities and Local Government 2011, and some others.

 

[napoleondynamite]

If the property was in lawful C4 use prior to the article 4 taking effect 29/05/2016 then you will only need to prove the use back to then. So provide evidence to cover 28/05/2016 onwards and you should be fine.

 

[frank999]

Thank you, just called the council, I quoted that I only need provide evidence to cover 28/05/2016 - that it was in use as an HMO C4, and a duty Planning office agreed - so on this now fifth time of asking I get yet another answer, happier it the answer I wanted to hear ... but how can the Duty Officers all be so vague, 2 have said 4 years, 2 have said 10 years ... and now this fifth confirms its the date prior to the Article 4, I was very clear about what I was asking when I called each time ...

 

[napoleondynamite]

I would just apply and evidence 28/05/2016 onwards. If the use was was lawful prior to adoption of the Article 4, and the Article 4 only covers new changes of use, it does not impact upon existing uses, there will be nothing else to discuss.

 

[frank999]

Thanks, the council have sent me round in circles for days on this, I will simply provide evidence to prove lawful use as of 28/05/2016, which I can do easily.

I also have a Hip to Gable loft conversion also at the property (a semi), a Lawful Development Certificate (proposed) dated 28/09/2010 has been issued, this was for 40.9 cu sq mts, however the roof enlargement has ended up just under 50cu sq mts (as per PD limits), so assume a new CLD application is required for this ... could I submit an application for a Certificate of Lawfullness for both HMO Use and Loft at the same time ?

 

[Nakajo]

"Required"? I doubt it. But I'm sure the Council will appreciate the contribution to their Christmas Booze fund.

 

[frank999]

Yes sorry, its not 'required' by the Council - should have said - I am remortaging, so the lender may ask to see that what they are lending on is all legal.

The council planning dept now operates as a private co./partnership, so hopefully a Xmas booze up will come out of expenses, and not tax payers lolli.

 

[Nakajo]

Either way, it certainly isn't required. That said, it can often be simpler to obtain one than argue the toss with some numpty solicitor.

 

[tony1851]

Is the lender going to come round with a ladder and start measuring up your roof enlargement to check whwther it is actually larger than 40.9 m³?

 

[frank999]

It would need to be a long ladder if they did.
I assume during the mortgage application someone will ask to see legal documents to back any extension, the built dormer looks slightly different to what was built - which is just under the 50 cu sq mts, are the surveyors likely to take photo's and compare them to the original council application (for 40 cu sq mts) which is online - I've had another architect check the actual built dormer and its under 50.

I've spoken to the 'specialist' (who are actually Architects who help with HMO planning apps) - and they finally said they are not sure what period of evidence would be required, as the legislation is all so new.
Some council websites have put up web pages stating what they need, and it is.

Newcastle it is:
https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/planni...ations/planning-guidance/hmo-legislation-2011
Under this part of the page:
What type of information will I need to provide to support an application for a Lawful Development Certificate for a house in multiple occupation?
Point 5. I think is relevant, and asks for evidence between 01/10/2010 (when the HMO PD legislation was reversed and reinstated) and the time when the Artcile 4 Direction came into force.

And also backs this:
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=7580

So from what I can see any date prior to the start of the Article 4 Direction.
Could I enclose the pages for the basis of my claim, in case the council try and argue otherwise, I am going to state a date in 2013 - as one Tenant agreement is still running from that time, this date is after 01/10/2010 (when the HMO PD legislation was reversed and reinstated) which is what they require - along with other 2 other currently running Tenant agreement.

Assume council can't argue with what other councils have interpreted - surely ?

 

[Nakajo]

Have you ever actually met a surveyor? They ain't gonna do nuffink.

 

[tony1851]

Assume council can't argue with what other councils have interpreted - surely ?

Each council will interpret the rules as they see fit, and usually after advice from their own legal departments.

 

[^woody^]

The first step would be to stop relying on your "specialists" for advice. A magic 8 ball would be more use

 

[frank999]

I get the feeling that who ever you speak to at the council aren't 100% sure of what they know ... I guess a Lawfullness application tests this, and it is then that the back room legal dept. make a more accurate and written judgement.

If specialist Architects are not to be trusted (this particular co. inform me they employ ex council planning inspectors), and you cannot get reliable information from first level council office staff, how do you know what guidance you should be following ... the council admitted they should put something online to clarify matters regarding the HMO situation for people such as myself with these circumstances, but guess there are just too many variables to answer some questions.
So even a pre application meeting should not be relied upon.

Regarding remortgage - I will see what the lenders require after valuation - and whether they need to see any evidence of lawfullness.