Approved Documennt Part P

[ban-all-sheds]

1) Recreate the traditional apprenticeship system (but without the traditions of wasting the apprentices time by making him teaboy/gopher/sweeper-up, and nailing him upside down by his foresk¡n to a ceiling joist etc).

2) Make the traditional apprenticeship route compulsory.

 

[flameport]

The gas system is a reasonable model.

Competence based system, whereby individuals are assessed, not companies. And proper assessments, done at an assessment centre, not the current system of a couple of jobs to look at once a year, which of course are specially selected in advance.

A single scheme and if you want to do electrical work anywhere other than your own home, then membership is compulsory. This puts a stop to most builders, kitchen fitters, odd job persons and suchlike doing electrical work.

Wide range of assessments, to cover various different types of work. These would be reflected in the individuals registration, which would allow them to do certain types of work only. This would apply to domestic, commercial and industrial type works.
Individuals would then have a card listing the type of work they can do - so it is easy to check if someone is competent to carry out a particular task. Qualifications would not be shown, since the majority of people outside the electrical industry won't know what any of them are.

Titles such as 'electrician' 'domestic installer', 'approved contractor' and so on would be abolished. These are all useless, since they are not clearly defined and can mean very different things.

Qualifications would not be the primary method of determining competence. Clearly they are important, but basing the entire system on this doesn't work as useless people exist in all forms. (This is a fundamental problem with the JIB grading system).
Someone could have a whole stack of pieces of paper, all acquired recently and therefore right up to date, yet they have only done a couple of weeks of practical in a workshop and none in the real world. Equally, another may have done a proper apprenticeship lasting 5 years and then worked in the industry for the next 30 - but they are still working to the 14th edition and haven't bothered to update at all.

Part P and notification fees are a separate issue. Clearly the current system of the homeowner paying £200 for a new socket in the kitchen is useless. Having building control inspect everything can't possibly work either, since they don't have the people to do this.
One possibility is to allow some scheme members to inspect works such as new sockets for a moderate fee, and then notify that they comply with building regulations. Those who can do this would of course have to meet certain requirements, and their membership card would state that they can do this. Fees would be based on the scale of the work, as the checks required for a single additional socket would take a few minutes, whereas those for a full rewire could take all day.
This wouldn't just be electrical checks, but would cover other sections of building regulations, so people installing downlighters in their bathroom or 500w floodlights to illuminate the front doorstep would quickly discover the error of their ways.

Remove the useless obsession with kitchens, and make all work in the home notifiable, except for replacement of lights, sockets, switches etc. Any new circuits or alterations to existing ones would be notifiable.
A major benefit of this would be getting competent people into homes where they would never normally go. Therefore identifying the huge number of grossly outdated and dangerous installations which should have been replaced decades ago. Clearly it would be up to the homeowner to decide to replace or not, but the very act of bringing such ancient installations to their attention would result in a fair number having their home rewired, fusebox replaced etc.

Finally, the other item to address is the situation with rented properties. All rented houses/flats etc. should be required to have an electrical inspection every year. Initially this would have to be a full PIR, however subsequent years could just confirm the findings of the original report and therefore take less time and money. A full PIR could be required every 5 years or so with a selection of testing and inspection for the other years - mainly to confirm nothing was broken and tenants haven't tampered with or altered anything.
This should also be to the current edition of BS7671, so things such as RCDs for socket outlets would be required and the absence of these would be a failure.

 

[1john]

An interesting read Flameport, I think we are on a very similar page, I dont think I agree with every thing but there wasn't much that I didn't agree with either. It is nice to know that other people have similar opinions.

1) Recreate the traditional apprenticeship system (but without the traditions of wasting the apprentices time by making him teaboy/gopher/sweeper-up, and nailing him upside down by his foresk¡n to a ceiling joist etc).

2) Make the traditional apprenticeship route compulsory.

1 - teaboy/gopher/sweeper-upper are all important parts of the apprentship. Also it is a good test for patience as in my experience, most 16 year olds want to be straight in there wiring stuff up, then you let them loose on a socket or something and have to re do it and show them how to dress the cables in neatly, strip the cables to the same length, expose the same amount of conductor on each core, double over conductors where required. I was away on the foreskin nailing day (doing my AM2 ) and I dont think I bothered nailing either of the apprentices. You can tell who will make a good impression and who wont, someone keen will watch you like a hawk for as long as their attention span will allow, they will ask you questions and sometimes look at you in awe when you do something, generally be in the way looking over you shoulder and annoying you when you are struggling with something, point is they are very interested.


2 - I think anyone doing electrical work should have to do the AM2, I remember doing it and it was quite a worry for anyone who had it comming up too. Not so bad once you do it though, I suppose you hear horror stories from people who cannot do the various aspects of electrical work but this exam shows that you have the knowledge and skills to do most aspects which you may not come across every day (especially in a domestic situation) but are still possible. I remember an electrician asking on here how to strip pyro (MICC) on one thread, had this guy done the AM2 he would either know or not passed the AM2 until he did. I'm not having a personal attack at said fella, just merely an example of someone qualified that cant do every aspect of the job.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

I wonder how long it will be until a fair system is put into place?

What would constitute a fair system then?

not really certain myself, perhaps a blend of the suggestions made here by others. I do think that the current system is creating as many problems as it is solving and it seems to me that the only bodies benefiting from it as it stands are the scheme providers and LABCs.

House holders and registered sparks seem to be funding the system but those who cant be bothered to do 'the right thing' are not being brought into line. Doesn't seem right to me

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Competence based system, whereby individuals are assessed, not companies.
.
.
.
Individuals would then have a card listing the type of work they can do - so it is easy to check if someone is competent to carry out a particular task. Qualifications would not be shown, since the majority of people outside the electrical industry won't know what any of them are.

So how would you cope with a system where large companies have one group of employees who do the design, another the construction and a 3rd the testing?

That split of competencies is needed, but how would you reflect that in a description on a card that would allow both large knowledgeable employers and homeowners to judge what a person can do?

Wide range of assessments, to cover various different types of work. These would be reflected in the individuals registration, which would allow them to do certain types of work only. This would apply to domestic, commercial and industrial type works.
.
.
.
Titles such as 'electrician' 'domestic installer', 'approved contractor' and so on would be abolished. These are all useless, since they are not clearly defined and can mean very different things.

Is there a dichotomy there?

By types of work do you mean electrical types or environment types?

Do you envisage, for example, that someones scope might be "single-phase LV installations" or "domestic installations"?

How do you deal with the overlap, in that a small shop or office can easily be, electrically, no different from a house, but conversely a large house could have a 3-phase supply, and a very large house could have a lift?

Someone could have a whole stack of pieces of paper, all acquired recently and therefore right up to date, yet they have only done a couple of weeks of practical in a workshop and none in the real world.

Oh absolutely - I remember a couple of years ago a college lecturer telling me that new electricians were rushing to get the 16th even though it had only a short time left to run, rather than just going straight for the 17th because a CV showing both implied longer experience.

Fees would be based on the scale of the work, as the checks required for a single additional socket would take a few minutes, whereas those for a full rewire could take all day.

By the time you add in the admin overhead of booking and scheduling the job, travel to and from it, and paperwork (both electrical and business admin) and reporting afterwards, is it still a few minutes?

This wouldn't just be electrical checks, but would cover other sections of building regulations, so people installing downlighters in their bathroom or 500w floodlights to illuminate the front doorstep would quickly discover the error of their ways.

Downlights in a bathroom are not necessarily in contravention, but the "few minutes" would have to also cover getting up into the loft to inspect for insulation cover, moisture sealing, clearance around the lights and structural damage to joists to be sure.

Remove the useless obsession with kitchens,

That was only ever there for financial reasons.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1 - teaboy/gopher/sweeper-upper are all important parts of the apprentship.

Is it?

How does it help them develop their electrical skills?

Also it is a good test for patience as in my experience, most 16 year olds want to be straight in there wiring stuff up, then you let them loose on a socket or something and have to re do it and show them how to dress the cables in neatly, strip the cables to the same length, expose the same amount of conductor on each core, double over conductors where required.

How does making tea/fetching sandwiches/sweeping up teach them those things? You seem to be saying that being a teaboy/gopher/sweeper-upper is important because it knocks keenness out of the apprentice and teaches him not to expect too much.

If you had kids at school and they told you that part of their days consisted of making tea and running errands for the teachers, and cleaning the school, would you think "great, that's an important part of their schooling", or would you be round to the head to have a word with him?

 

[Spark123]

and a very large house could have a lift?

Lifts are unforgiving pieces of machinery, I have known a couple of instances of people getting on the wrong side of them whilst maintaining them. Unless you have specific training in lift maintenance it is a no-go area, which is probably a large majority of electricians (including me).

 

[1john]

1 - teaboy/gopher/sweeper-upper are all important parts of the apprentship.

Is it?

How does it help them develop their electrical skills?

Also it is a good test for patience as in my experience, most 16 year olds want to be straight in there wiring stuff up, then you let them loose on a socket or something and have to re do it and show them how to dress the cables in neatly, strip the cables to the same length, expose the same amount of conductor on each core, double over conductors where required.

How does making tea/fetching sandwiches/sweeping up teach them those things? You seem to be saying that being a teaboy/gopher/sweeper-upper is important because it knocks keenness out of the apprentice and teaches him not to expect too much.

If you had kids at school and they told you that part of their days consisted of making tea and running errands for the teachers, and cleaning the school, would you think "great, that's an important part of their schooling", or would you be round to the head to have a word with him?

There is nowt wrong with doing stuff for others like making tea and doing errands, it's about team work, sweeping up and tidying is important so the routine of keeping a site or even someones house clean and a safe place to work is also drummed in to them from the outset. It isn't more of knocking the keenness out of them, it's ensuring that they are keen and emphasising that there is alot more involved than slinging cables in and connecting accessories. There are other trades and of course domestically the home owner to consider too.