Are copper push fit connectors any good?

[muffking]

I remember seeing one of the DIY programs where an ex student type fancied doing up an old house for profit. He installed new rads & water taps all round the house and used mainly plastic pipes with push fit connectors under the flooring. nothing wrong with that you might think...

Some how when he turned the water back on the ceiling leaked like a seive out of every joint. I can only imagine that either all the pipe ends had not been cut properly, or he had losened the push fit conectors to the point where they hadn't sealed.

 

[Softus]

Some how when he turned the water back on the ceiling leaked like a seive out of every joint.

Every joint? That's quite an achievement. At least his work was consistent.

I can only imagine that either all the pipe ends had not been cut properly, or he had losened the push fit conectors to the point where they hadn't sealed.

Sometimes people use a hacksaw on the pipe, and/or fail to use the correct support sleeves, or damage the O rings, or score the pipe through carelessness, or not insert the pipe far enough, or omit to check that the grab ring/wedge has engaged, but I don't know what you mean by loosening of the connector. Why would you loosen anything?

 

[muffking]

Sometimes people use a hacksaw on the pipe, and/or fail to use the correct support sleeves, or damage the O rings, or score the pipe through carelessness, or not insert the pipe far enough, or omit to check that the grab ring/wedge has engaged, but I don't know what you mean by loosening of the connector. Why would you loosen anything?

Dunno, he must have been clueless and undone them himself thinking this was needed to fit them & not tightened them back up afterwards.

Without meaning to get flamed, are you meant to use sleeves/inserts in plastic pipes before fitting compression joints? (I've not used plasit pipes in my install BTW).

 

[Softus]

Dunno, he must have been clueless and undone them himself thinking this was needed to fit them & not tightened them back up afterwards.

I think that's incredibly unlikely. However, this is all conjecture. Clearly he didn't follow the manufacturer's instructions.

Without meaning to get flamed, are you meant to use sleeves/inserts in plastic pipes before fitting compression joints?

To my knowledge, every manufacturer of plastic pipe, and this includes MDPE, stipluates the use of the corrrect support sleeves.

Using plastic pipe is very simple, but you can't mistreat the pipe and get away with it. There are plenty of other pitfalls, e.g. clipping, allowing for expansion, temperature considerations, that are more critical with plastic pipe than copper tubing, and the fact that it appears not to need any installation skill misleads many people into not applying any.

 

[Belboz]

I think the 'loosening' may be referring to the newer type of fittings. I have successfully used push-fits for a number of years albeit I don't use them on CH. I only use them for water.

The ones they made years ago were a solid fitting and I ensured I used the pipe collars to prevent any 'blowouts'. As I used the plastic pipe too, the stop marks are clearly shown. Properly supported plastic pipe with the correct inserts and properly fitted with collars seems to have worked without problems.

The difference with the newer fittings is that they are not solid but have connectors at each pipe insert which are 'unscrewed' when inserting the pipe and then 'tightened' to make good the joint. Don't know why they changed the design - maybe to make demounting easier? With these 'new' ones the collars don't fit so I needed to use the circular clips which, like the collars, prevent 'blowouts'.

I would state here that I am on about the white JG ones and not the copper ones which I have never tried.

IMHO, they are fine in certain situations and where there is access in case of problems. I wouldn't use them under floorboards or where pipework was not accessible purely because of the potential problems discussed on here.

 

[Softus]

I think the 'loosening' may be referring to the newer type of fittings.

Er, I think you mean Speedfit fittings.

The ones they made years ago were a solid fitting and I ensured I used the pipe collars to prevent any 'blowouts'.

The collars are only for cosmetic purposes; the circlips prevent the grab ring from moving down the pipe.

The difference with the newer fittings is that they are not solid but have connectors at each pipe insert which are 'unscrewed' when inserting the pipe and then 'tightened' to make good the joint. Don't know why they changed the design - maybe to make demounting easier?

It's a locking mechanism that obviates the need for the circlip.

With these 'new' ones the collars don't fit so I needed to use the circular clips which, like the collars, prevent 'blowouts'.

Again, the collars on the obsolete Speedfit fittings are not for mechanical retraint - they are merely cosmetic.

IMHO, they are fine in certain situations and where there is access in case of problems. I wouldn't use them under floorboards or where pipework was not accessible purely because of the potential problems discussed on here.

Oh yes, and copper never leaks under the floor.

 

[Belboz]

Softus - Thanks for all that. Didn't use the brand name as wasn't sure if it breached any advertising rules on here....

Bit confused over the collar because the technical specs state;

Collet covers

Collet covers provide added security for standard fittings against pipe disconnection

However, I will bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.

makes sense as to the 'newer' fittings not requiring a collect clip hence the loosening/tightening.

On this subject, any idea where to source the blue/red/white 15mm clips?

Screwfix only do the Flo-Plast ones. tried searching the 'net but couldn't find any retailers. Ended up contacting JG direct who sent me out some samples [which was nice of them] - bag of each in all 3 sizes!!

Yes I know copper leaks under floorboards too - just wouldn't want to chance it using push-fit!!!

Thanks again

 

[Softus]

I would state here that I am on about the white JG ones...

Didn't use the brand name as wasn't sure if it breached any advertising rules on here....

Bit confused over the collar because the technical specs state;

Collet covers

Collet covers provide added security for standard fittings against pipe disconnection

That's right - they stop people fiddling, but they're not a restraint. How much force do you think is needed to unclip one?

On this subject, any idea where to source the blue/red/white 15mm clips?

I believe that John Guest can still supply them.

Personally I only use Hep2o for plastic, but have some JG as an option.

Yes I know copper leaks under floorboards too - just wouldn't want to chance it using push-fit!

I don't know why. You can have longer pipework runs with plastic, without any joints, so how are you assessing the risk?

 

[Belboz]

See your point about using the company name - just didn't use the trademarked brand name....same difference - DOH!!!

Take your points about collars. I obviously read too much into it!!

Never used Hep2o - maybe I should consider it if I need to in future.

Yep, longer pipe runs. Maybe I am lucky that the runs in my place are long enough to not need straight connections. The issue under my floors is the tees off the straight runs for the rads.

However, I do take that point too.

Cheers

 

[muffking]

Using plastic pipe is very simple, but you can't mistreat the pipe and get away with it. There are plenty of other pitfalls, e.g. clipping, allowing for expansion, temperature considerations, that are more critical with plastic pipe than copper tubing, and the fact that it appears not to need any installation skill misleads many people into not applying any.

I did use plastic pipe when I fitten my kitchen. The push fits have been in for 3 years but I didn't use any inserts. The connectors are Wickes own brand, should I have used sleeves?

On my next job I'll need to work on re pipeing some rads (on a sealed combi system) when I fit my bathroom in a fortnight. I have plastic supply pipes running under the floor boards currently push fitted to copper pipes feeding the rads. What's the best way of connecting these via chrome pipes to the rads?
Obviously I'll be using compression TRV's, but what's the simplest way of connecting the plastic & chrome pipes together?

 

[megawatt]

I still don't believe that there is a better solution than soldered fittings for underfloor areas etc.

I hear what you are saying Softus but well fitted Yorkshires last forever IMO and we can't say that about any of the newer technologies as they haven't been around long enough to know for sure

I agree that, for DIY work, there's more likelyhood of a badly fitted yorkshire than a badly fitted newer technology fitting in the hands of someone with limited experience.

MW

 

[Softus]

I did use plastic pipe when I fitten my kitchen. The push fits have been in for 3 years but I didn't use any inserts.

Good luck with that one then.

The connectors are Wickes own brand, should I have used sleeves?

Wickes don't make push-fit fittings, they just pack Polypipe fittings into Wickes bags and then double the selling price. They also sell the stainless steel sleeves in Wickes bags.

What's the best way of connecting these via chrome pipes to the rads?

Brass (or chrome on brass) compression elbow.

Obviously I'll be using compression TRV's, but what's the simplest way of connecting the plastic & chrome pipes together?

When you say "simplest" I take infer that you mean "most effective". If so, then a brass compression fitting is the most reliable way.

I still don't believe that there is a better solution than soldered fittings for underfloor areas etc.

It's your prerogative to believe that, but I'd be curious to know your reasons.

I hear what you are saying Softus but well fitted Yorkshires last forever IMO

Nothing lasts forever.

we can't say that about any of the newer technologies as they haven't been around long enough to know for sure

I don't recall reading any guarantee from Yorkshire Tubing or Yorkshire Fittings that copper tube or ring-solder fittings will last for 50 years. Hepworth, on the other hand, does issue such a guarantee (for their own products).

I agree that, for DIY work, there's more likelyhood of a badly fitted yorkshire than a badly fitted newer technology fitting in the hands of someone with limited experience.

I don't know who you're agreeing with - it's certainly not me, because I believe the opposite of that. More more novices use push-fit than use soldered fittings, and very few of them read, or follow, the MIs. Also, keen and competent amateurs tend to hold the same prejudice as some professionals wrt to the ludicrous "copper is the best for everything" mantra.

 

[Goldspoon]

Nothing lasts forever.

How do you know that then..?

 

[muffking]

Nothing lasts forever.

How do you know that then..?

I guess because the world won't last forever, therefore neither will everything on it

I did use plastic pipe when I fitten my kitchen. The push fits have been in for 3 years but I didn't use any inserts.

Good luck with that one then.

Should I go back to the pipes and fit sleeves tobe on the safe side?

The connectors are Wickes own brand, should I have used sleeves?

Wickes don't make push-fit fittings, they just pack Polypipe fittings into Wickes bags and then double the selling price. They also sell the stainless steel sleeves in Wickes bags.

Is it just a case of pushing sleeves inside the plastic pipes & refitting the push fit connectors?

What's the best way of connecting these via chrome pipes to the rads?

Brass (or chrome on brass) compression elbow.
Obviously I'll be using compression TRV's, but what's the simplest way of connecting the plastic & chrome pipes together?
When you say "simplest" I take infer that you mean "most effective". If so, then a brass compression fitting is the most reliable way.

Yes, most effective, the proper way to do it.
Is this just a normal compression joint then as I bought a bag of chrome ones from Screfix yesterday, but didn't know that I could use these on plastic pipes for feat of crushing the pipe, which is why I had visions of having to push fit copper pipes to the plastic ones & then using compression joints to join the chrome pipes to the copper ones, which would be a messy install for all pipes.

 

[Softus]

Nothing lasts forever.

How do you know that then..?

I guess because the world won't last forever, therefore neither will everything on it

I think Goldspoon was just being mischievous.

Should I go back to the pipes and fit sleeves tobe on the safe side?

Are those connections on heating, or tank fed supplies, or pump fed supplies, or mains fed supplies?

Is it just a case of pushing sleeves inside the plastic pipes & refitting the push fit connectors?

No, because the grab ring/wedge would then be too far from the end of the pipe. With Hep2o this is a minor problem, but with Polypipe fittings the steel ring is a royal pain in the ar*e to move without destroying it and/or scoring the pipe.

Is this just a normal compression joint then...

Yes. No different to making onto copper.

...I had visions of having to push fit copper pipes to the plastic ones & then using compression joints to join the chrome pipes to the copper ones, which would be a messy install for all pipes.

Yes, it would be.

You can use brass compression fittings on plastic pipe, but using the sleeves is [even more] imperative, and don't murder them when tightening up.
_______________________

PS There's a new tool available for cutting plastic pipe, that looks like a copper pipeslice. These are marvellous because the pipe isn't squashed while being cut, and therefore make for a better installation. It's called the Rothenberger Plasticut.