Baxi Barcelona ignition lockout

[John M]

how can you distinguish the chancers and the rip-off artists from the guys who can really help you?

Ya give em a go ....... Then if they get it wrong, you take a pipe wrench & remove both central & lateral incisors, Canines & if ya really angry first & secondry premolars ........ Anything else is just excessive...... Oh & take your money back too

 

[rewardinheaven]

Thank you Snatch51. It's a shame some contributions are not more constructive. It's taken me a while for the penny to drop and realise why this site has the name it has. Someone is trying to put us off trying to help ourselves.

Your analysis of the Barcelona is right. My (CORGI) installer, who is a good guy and has helped out, sometimes at short notice, on other problems is mortified at the trouble we have had. Another local repairer/serviceman just doesn't return my calls, whether out of despair or being too decent a guy to take my money I don't know.

If you have the installation and servicing instructions you can at least diagnose the problem yourself with the help of an avometer. I have diagnosed and fixed a problem with the condensate trap, one of the circuit boards and the combustion chamber seal (about 20 times). This seal disintegrates and you get the lockout problem. The telltale sign is dust in the outer chamber - the one with the fan in it. It is quite easy to fix. The part number is 242489 and it costs about a fiver. In my case this does two repairs as the seal always goes in one corner so that replacing the bottom and left sides is enough. The other two sides last much longer which to my mind indicates some kind of design or manufacturing fault. I suspect this is in the burner unit which I have not replaced yet as it is a bigger job and much more expensive. However the servicing instructions suggest it is far from rocket science.

 

[Snatch51]

Well, rewardinheaven, I cannot see how you can be wrong about the bad design of this beast. 20 repairs of the firebox door seals!
What would that cost at tradesmen's rates?
I am only up to about five, not counting the ones I did actually pay someone to do.
The thread confirms something I have suspected: the best engineers are not prepared to touch Barcelonas now. I have only two choices: find a cowboy who wouldn't have a clue anyway, or buy a new boiler.
Now, before anyone says it's a no-brainer, the whole system would need a drain-down and cleansing, (I tried this once somewhere else, and it took three days. It also did not remove the corrosion, and I would now always engage specialists for this operation.) Then we would have to reposition several rads which were shoddily installed without the little nylon seatings they are supposed to have, so that they rattle. If there is to be a drain-down, we cannot miss the chance to fix that little job. (Is there ever a little job? I could see the rads alone taking a day). The cleansing process has a searching action which finds minute leaks and pinholes, so if we encounter them, all bets are off.
You get my drift? I don't need the disruption just now. No system seems to last forever these days, so another year's life or so from the Beastly Barcelona could be a year gained. (Have you ever noticed that the chunky old galvanised iron systems seem to soldier on for ever?).
The daft thing is that my boiler will light, (not always first time, it blows out sometimes and starts again), with the airbox door off! but as soon as I put the airbox door back on, it will not light!
Penpusher, you will be tearing your hair out by now! Don't worry, I don't leave it running with the door off, I am not actually a dangerous lunatic trying to burn my house down! If the firebox seals blew at the critical moment, it would sear all the wiring for starters, and then probably set fire to the whole place. My experience of the safety lockout process is that the system does not lock out until those seals are in an advanced state of disintegration. Remember the Shuttle which was destroyed by hot gasses escaping past a faulty O-ring? The damage was done before anyone could do anything about it and it would be the same with this. It is bad enough with the airbox door in place: I have scorch marks on the boiler casing, and burnt insulation on the cables.
Can anyone explain why it will light without the airbox door on, which it obviously shouldn't do, but won't light with the door on, which is what it is supposed to do?
Anyone? Please?

 

[Vic Spanner]

the combustion chamber seal (about 20 times). This seal disintegrates and you get the lockout problem. The telltale sign is dust in the outer chamber - the one with the fan in it. It is quite easy to fix. The part number is 242489 and it costs about a fiver. In my case this does two repairs as the seal always goes in one corner so that replacing the bottom and left sides is enough. The other two sides last much longer which to my mind indicates some kind of design or manufacturing fault.

Put spring washers on your combustion chamber door screws.

 

[Vic Spanner]

Can anyone explain why it will light without the airbox door on, which it obviously shouldn't do, but won't light with the door on, which is what it is supposed to do?
Anyone? Please?

Flue fault/venturi problem/earthing....???????????

 

[Snatch51]

Thanks Poxi.
The external trim to the flue is puttied on apparently. Before I break that up to check for blockages, is there an easier way to check?
Earthing from what to what could cause this particular syndrome?
What might have gone wrong with the venturi, and how do I find out?
Thanks for taking the time to help me out here!

 

[rewardinheaven]

poxi, thanks for that tip. I'll try it next time the seals go. But why?

Snatch51, yours is a new one. Mine lights quite happily (when it is working) with or without the airbox door. Usual disclaimer of course - like you I have the sense not to leave it running like that. Yours sounds an even worse case than mine. I haven't had scorch marks or burnt insulation yet.

 

[Snatch51]

OK rewardinheaven, the principle is simple: as the seals weaken, the spring washers take up some slack and keep the box sealed up with any luck.
However, the problem is that if the unit is anything like mine, you are only fixing into stupid little clips which are only good enough for car trim if that. My boiler parts guy doesn't even stock them. He suggested Halfords! When you tighten the screws, (and remember on the airbox door there is a solemn message about making sure the firebox screws are tight!), you will be lucky if they don't start twisting uselessly in their seatings. This is what keeps happening to me.
Poxi has a cool idea. You put spring washers on, and then do not tighten beyond the point where the screws start to slip! Sounds as if it might work!
What I have been trying is introducing machine screws with nuts behind, and some spring washers and shakeproof washers to shore it all up. I have managed to fix three of the four fixings this way, but physically working the nuts in and getting the bolt in is a challenge as the thing is deliberately designed to stop you doing anything of the sort. I plan to glue a nut onto the hard-to-reach side of the flange to sort out the final fixing, but in the meantime I tried to hold the nut on by telling my daughter to chew some gum which I could use to hold the nut until it was pulled in by the bolt and held fast. Even the wife is laughing at me for this, and as for Penpusher, he is probably losing the will to live about now!
The culprit of course is Baxi, who should be taken out and shot. How can you supply a firebox with edges so inexactly welded that some are 2-3 mm proud of the others, then demand that the firebox seals be tight, then supply seals that I would not accept in my picnic coolbox, then be surprised when the whole thing fails?
I actually looked at their website this evening and it nearly made me throw up. There were dear little children toddling around basking in the glow of the heat they supply...Well, MY children are COLD, NOW!
If any Baxi people are watching this site, I hope you are ashamed.
If none of you are, it's time you were. In Yankland, there would have been a class action suit against you, and in all probablility you would have been put out of business by now, not displaying websites of happy warm toddlers!
As a matter of fact, there is a mechanism in UK law for something pretty similar, but I don't remember the exact name for it.
Baxi: don't think you are necessarily going to get away with it... this is 2007, we know our rights, we paid our money, and you people sold us crap.
Watch this space!

 

[Snatch51]

OK Poxi, you were spot on in the end.
I hacked into the wall to inspect the flue, and found the inspection plate on top of the boiler. With this off, there could not really be a choking effect in the case, but still there was no ignition, so it was not the flue.
The venturi I took off and polished up, but it was not that.
I had to replace some torn wiring to the sensors, and the rubber sleeves had gone. I had a connection with a spade clip, but had not yet put on insulation in case I had to open it all up again...and of course the spark was arcing from the spade clip to the airbox lid as soon as it was put on! So it WAS an earthing fault. Thanks!
A basic error on my part, but this week has cost me £16 for new sensors and seals. A new boiler would have been a lot more, and a huge disruption that I didn't need!
I've spent a bit of time fiddling about with my boiler, but I know a hell of a lot more about it than I did a week ago, and I have heat. I'm cool with this.

 

[alexp.1]

What would cause a Barcelona to shut itself down a few seconds after the burner has lit? It would then wait 3 minutes (solid green light and a quiet humming noise) and try to light again, unsuccessfully. Pressure fine at 1 bar and control knob set at two-thirds of maximum.

Had this cycle of events going on last night until I got fed up and switched the whole thing off at the mains. Switched her back on this morning and it seemed fine.

Any more shenanigans this winter and I'll be knocking on the door of Mr. Viessmann/Buderus.

 

[baxpoti]

Flame sensing, or lack of it!

 

[Snatch51]

What about where the flame lights with a woof, and immediately goes out. Mine tries again and then sometimes relights, but not always.
Is this flame lift? Could a knackered burner be the main culprit, is the gas valve wrongly calibrated and delivering too rich a mix, or what?
I don't want to try re-calibrating the gas valve myself, (be reassured penpusher!), but I have seen that the calibration of the valve is a common issue with these boilers.

 

[MrCrossFromCardiff]

if anyone is still interested in this topic, I have practical information to help with the ignition lockout problem on Baxi Barcelona....... and the cost is around £30.

 

[corgiman]

Are you kidding?

 

[Trundles Tricks]

My heartfelt sympathies to the remaining owners of Barcelonas, they are right up there with the Ideal Isars as contenders for the the worst boilers in recent times.

I won't go near one anymore so can understand peoples frustration at not being able to get anyone to repair them.

I won't work on them because of the costs to the customer and the possibility of not getting one going for any length of time, in which case I tend to chop my bill to pieces in sympathy and embarrassment, so in the end we've both lost out after pointing out at the outset the possibilty of limited repair success.

It's the opposite of ripping someone off to decline the repair job in the first place in my view.