BCO requires competant sign off of installation

[sparkiedave]

firstly, have you carried out any tests on the circuit, ring circuit continuity, R1+R2, Insulation resistance and Earth Loop Impedence, Along with prospective short circuit current and prospective fault current to make sure they all comply with the limitations laid down by BS7671? I suspect not, therefore, how do you know if the circuit is safe now?? , or that it was even safe before, if you are a qualified electrician, you can produce your own EIC, the LABC may require you to prove your competence by asking to see your qualifications, most will not accept anything less than C&G 2391 (Inspection & Testing).
I guess what I am trying to say is there is a lot more to wiring or altering a ring main than doing the work then switching it on to see if it works without any unwanted sparks, a ring can also have some quite serious faults and still work, untill you apply a larger load, hence the testing being so important. Part P was brought about for a reason, and even a lot of full time sparks don't like it, but it was done to stop DIYers, Builders, Kitchen fitters and the like from carrying out potentially dangerous work!

 

[JohnD]

... it was done to stop DIYers, Builders, Kitchen fitters and the like from carrying out potentially dangerous work!

doesn't seem to have worked then

 

[First-time-buyer]

Boards are cheap to buy, its the labour thats expensive, id expect about 2 hours to replace it, and then about another 1.5hrs to test it.

Did notice that the local B&Q had split load boards, think 8way with MCB's for just over £80, so unsure what the local CEF, or Newey & Eyre are doing them for.

Please do not post incorrect advice on this forum.

A standard mains change will take a full working day to be properly replaced and and all the relevent testing and paperwork be completed.

It might take all day for yourself, but we use to change the consumer unit in about 2 hours, from taking the cover off at the start too finishing it off.

Like i said above, 1.5hrs for testing & inspection.

 

[sparkiedave]

Every job is different but when I book in a CU swap I tend to allow a day, it's very unusual to find that everything is up to spec', I test before swapping the board to find faults before starting on the rest, to do it in half a day it would have to be a small property, everything correctly labelled, all bonds in place etc

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I ran my project on a building notice, not full plans.

Always, always a HUGE mistake.

As you are finding out...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It might take all day for yourself, but we use to change the consumer unit in about 2 hours, from taking the cover off at the start too finishing it off.

Like i said above, 1.5hrs for testing & inspection.

Yeeeeh-haahh!

 

[Pensdown]

I never really mentioned anything about electrics on the building notice.

For the electrical works you've described a building reg notice is not required so you've done nothing wrong.

I ran my project on a building notice, not full plans. When I met with the BCO 1st time, I was advised to put in the costs for several projects, which would be a one off cost and I could leave it open for several projects.

Not a good idea because now you've left your self open if BC argues they didn't have the full scope of works

I said that the ring man would only be extended and a new light and could I do it myself - he only replied I would need a certificate from a qualified person to cover the work.

As a DIYer doing non-notifiable electrical works you don't need to to test your work nor do you need an electrical certificate from anyone.

It was just a shock when the RCD thing came into play.

Although you should seriously consider installing additional protection (RCD) to your ring circuits, in this instance, as a DIYer you are under no obligation to do so.

I didn't really understand the full implications of Part P really until you come across a official request for it. I was wondering if I looked at it really on the negative side, and was seeing his request to negatively and as a massive job requested from such a std request for information.

Because the electrical works that you've described are non-notifiable all that BC can do is comment whilst on site if they think you have not met P1 of Part P.

Look at it this way. If you had waited until the building works were signed off before you added the sockets and light you would have done nothing wrong.

IIWY I would ask your building inspector why he wants test documentation for non-notifiable electrical works before he can issue the completion certificate for the rest of the work?

 

[First-time-buyer]

It might take all day for yourself, but we use to change the consumer unit in about 2 hours, from taking the cover off at the start too finishing it off.

Like i said above, 1.5hrs for testing & inspection.

Yeeeeh-haahh!

Thanks, that made me laugh.

Anyway, it wasnt me that set the time scales, it was my boss...

 

[bradf0rd]

Again thanks for the replies from all. I will talk to the BC this week.
Would he actually sign off after finish plastering a room with no electric in though (I did think of this) and also the option of adding an extension reel from one room and plugging a table lamp in. However, the BCO has been spot on throughout, and has given me some invaluable info.
Also many sites conflict on what is required and what is not required - and it appears only the true answers lie in buying the full book and attending a course.

The issue of at least 50mm covered - what about the roof space where the lighting circuit runs would this need covering, also with the ring I have a doubled cable running on one length of a wall. It is classed as a safety zone (6" from the floor, and also with in 6" horizontal dimension of either side of a plug socket on the same wall) could I not cover that with a mechanical protection media ?

Other places say I could run it in metal conduit - what does this mean, will the preformed galvanized track sold at sheds which is attached with nails either side do. The cable only needs protection from one side, as it it running on a stone wall, with a brick wall on the other side. Or does it need old fashioned style conduit. When I was an apprentice we used to use a pipe threading machine and manufactured ends, corners, clips and access junctions when we supplied power to quality workstations in our factory, that thick old black stuff ?

Finally - does running down the middle of a 3 * 2 partition wall, with 12.5mm plasterboard each side class as safe, I had the cable loose and not pinned inside to allow it to move, should something get over 50mm and let it move slightly out of the way. added up it does give a 100mm overall depth so would that be covered ?

 

[RF Lighting]

You seem to be looking for loopholes in the regulations, rather than actually wanting to do the job properly.

6" from the floor is NOT a safe zone. Think about it. Where do you nail your skirting board onto?

6" either side of a plug socket is NOT a safe zone.

The "preformed galvanized track sold at sheds" or capping as it is known is not sufficient. You must use proper heavy gauge steel conduit. Galvanised would be best for this to stop it rusting.

I'm begining to understand why the BCO man has asked for a certificate for your wiring.

 

[bradf0rd]

no not at all RF, I do not think the BCO has any issues with anything done, the whole issues came by way of an aside comment about the finish plastering and electrics with the BCO, as I said I would like to do them. He has not seen where they were proposed or the installation.
I have not done anything "dodgy" on the entire build that you should infer caution is required, in fact all work I have done is still open for inspection. Nothing is hidden or squirrelled away.

My issue is, the only advice I have had so far is from local cold trades, non of which I know from Adam. I do not know well any Part P or inspectors well enough, and only know some by extended family or friends.

Part P is seen as a licence to print money by some non electrical people. Part P is used as a licence to print money by some electrical people too.

I have a very good friend in your neck of the woods, who takes on many many trades for contracts in the construction industry - and from his entire books he would not recommend one, and boy they come and go frequently.
So I am just airing caution. I can't see why I should take the word of a total stranger that I need to get a full house re wired just because I added a new room. This forum is here for questions, however naive. If there are sites out there giving bad advice, maybe the organisations that you subscribe to should chase them down and bring in some legislation to stamp it out.

Points on here, like the building notice comment, have been taken on board - things I have learnt already. A great many things have been answered and I am grateful.

There are as many contributors on other boards discussing similar issues as these, with other threads about not paying the Part P man anymore money, or he has started finding strange errors - which he tells me are too complicated to explain, but will take time to fix, but he is charging me £35 per hour to find it. or others where he has brought in two 16 year olds to find the errors and they have taken all week. Others where they have come back asking for money for a certificate etc. To me, you all sat in the same class room, I know no different it's the world we live in.


In my experience most people that go self employed do so for one of two reasons, so I just need to make sure that the advice I get is right.
I'm trying to avoid not being told in 3 months I have been sown up like a kipper or done the wrong thing - like building notice.

or someone has used this or that to make a bigger job, and more money.

Until recently - I didn't even know that I could have a Minor Works Certificate to cover it - so it has been well worthwhile the effort on my side.

no hard feelings mate - we are both Yorkshire men .. I want to hold onto my brass ..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I never really mentioned anything about electrics on the building notice.

For the electrical works you've described a building reg notice is not required so you've done nothing wrong.

It's only non-notifiable if it consists only of the work itemised in Schedule 2B.

In this case it was part of something which was notifiable, and therefore it came to the attention of the BCO.

The electrical work must comply with P1, and the BCO is quite correct to insist that it does, whether it would have been notifiable in isolation or not.

And as the OP didn't do a full plans submission and therefore didn't specify how he would ensure compliance with P1 the BCO is quite entitled, at this stage, to ask for an electrical certificate from someone he trusts as proof that it complies.

I said that the ring man would only be extended and a new light and could I do it myself - he only replied I would need a certificate from a qualified person to cover the work.

So you went ahead without first sorting out how you'd get such a certificate?

It was just a shock when the RCD thing came into play.

The only certificate you can get from an electrician is one which reports its compliance with the current version of the Wiring Regulations. That they are not law is irrelevant, as there is no other certification available to you, and the Wiring Regulations require an RCD.

I didn't really understand the full implications of Part P really until you come across a official request for it.

You should give your project manager a damned good kicking - it was extremely irresponsible of him to take the job on without being conversant with the laws which applied and without informing you about them.

Because the electrical works that you've described are non-notifiable all that BC can do is comment whilst on site if they think you have not met P1 of Part P.

No - not complying with P1 is a criminal offence, whether the work is notifiable or not.

Look at it this way. If you had waited until the building works were signed off before you added the sockets and light you would have done nothing wrong.

Not from a notification POV, I grant you, but given the OP's ignorance I think he'd have failed to comply with the Building Regulations.

IIWY I would ask your building inspector why he wants test documentation for non-notifiable electrical works before he can issue the completion certificate for the rest of the work?

Because the electrical work is part of something notifiable, so to issue a completion certificate he has to assure himself that all of it complies with the Building Regulations, parts A, B, C and so on. Part P applies to all work on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter that are intended to operate at low or extra-low voltage and are in or attached to a dwelling etc etc, not just notifiable work.

 

[david_uk]

Part P is seen as a licence to print money by some non electrical people. Part P is used as a licence to print money by some electrical people too.

Whilst there is some element of truth in this, overall I think your comments in that post are unfair. As has been said, part P (yes, we know it's a complete lash up) is law for a reason. I don't suppose you've seen DIY'ers wiring a shower into a ring main with lighting cable? I don't suppose you've seen DIY'ers adding several radial circuits to a ring main and then running kitchen appliances off of the radials? Nor do I suppose you've ever known anybody killed by a well intentioned DIY'er who thought he was being ripped off and could do the job better, or cheaper. Our job is to make sure installations are safe, and comply with the law. No denying in any trade there are a few rotten apples, but it's unfair to tarnish everyone with the same brush - especially people here trying to help. The reasons your sisters place needed work may well have been justified. I've seen many places with shiny sockets and lethal wiring.

As far as I can see, it doesn't matter what your opinion is, if the building inspector wants a certificate, no amount of arguing will make him sign the project off until he's got one he is happy with.

 

[bradf0rd]

no probs David and no offence meant - it wasn't meant to tarnish you with the same brush, just to point out that because one electrician turns up - I should believe everything I am told - I can only pick names from a phone book or the web, I have no one to vouch for any electricians.

No I have not seen anything on those things you mention above - so you have a point.

I am not sure what the actual point of Part P is, is it to deter the DIYer from carrying out the most simple of tasks. However, unless this is declared to building regs who would ever know, and if you could get hold of some old red and black, then they try and conceal it in the past. Houses with mortgates get a cursory once over, all recommend the electrics should be checked by a professional - and how many do ?

Or if it was an action to save Joe Public from all the rouge traders out there. Those self appointed time served engineers that had loyally carried an electricians ladders, used a bolster and cut out box seats for years, then decided to break, and announce to the world that he was the next best thing.
The reason for PART P I guess is a matter of opinion. To me no Regs are never stacked in the favour of the trades.

Has the number of available "electricians" out there dropped since Part P came out ?

Looking at the URL - maybe I got the gist of the site wrong, I thought it was for people who were having issues with DIY, rather than a site not for DIYers.

I am always grateful for any help given, and if three or more professionals agree on the same and all post that, then I would follow their direction - pretty much as I would pass off quotes given, I certainly wouldn't work off only one quote either - financial or technical.

I remember 1999 and the Y2K issues we had, mass paranoia out there, and video recorder sales fell through the floor - and what was the result of all that other government lead work .. a weather station stopped functioning in the UK ..

 

[david_uk]

Well, part of the reason for part P is that a while back an MP's daughter was electrocuted banging a nail into a wall. She died. The circuit was run outside safe zones, and had no RCD protection.

Now if it's urban legend or not I can't say, but I was told by people who should know that this was one of the things instrumental in trying to get rid of lethal DIY electrics, and regulate the trade. Because the government can'r manage a bunfight in a bakery the whole part P thing hasn't helped. B&Q can still sell consumer units to DIY'ers even though it's probably illegal for them to fit it. Local councils don't know what's required and so on.

You ask if this is a DIY newsgroup. Yes, it is and I've had good advice from other trades for my diy jobs.

Unfortunately, this job of yours isn't a DIY job. Here we can give advice on the options, but you need to employ someone competent to sign it off to the satisfaction of the council.

Option 1:- Argue with the inspector that he doesn't need a certificate. Don't even bother - telling him his job is going to cause you more problems than it's worth.

Option 2:- talk to the inspector and ask if there is anyone they reccomend who will do this. They might have someone they pass similar jobs to. Failing this, you will need to find someone yourself.

OK - stop work now is my advice. In order for anyone to sign this off they have to ascertain certain facts. This isn't being awkward, or seeing you as a cash cow - it's information required on a legal document.

Firstly, it will be necessary to check that the bonding is in place, and if it's not up to standard upgrade it. It is also necessary to check the incoming supply for earth fault loop impedance, pfc. Any defects need to be rectified.

Secondly, whoever inspects this will need to see the first fix and check it complies with safe zones etc. If it doesn't he can't sign the first fix off until it does. Thirdly he will need to see where you broke into the ring (or intend to break into it), and check this has been done satisfactorily. Once he's satisfied the first fix complies, then you can get on with plasterboarding and second fixing.

As discussed before, the circuit WILL need rcd protection. Again, not seeing you as a blank cheque, but what the regulations (effectively law) require. Now this may be possible to do by an rcbo, or if he feels the whole shooting match needs to be replaced, then that is what has to happen. You can ask him why he feels this is necessary, or you can post pictures of it here and we might be able to offer advice on what is likely.

Remember that when the circuit has been second fixed it needs to be fully tested. It's not a case of checking just the new outlets - the whole circuit has to be testet. That means he will need to make tests at ALL outlets on the ring. He needs to ascertain that the ring has continuity, is correct for polarity, insulation resistance complies, and any defects need to be rectified.

So it's not a job for a DIY person, and you don't really have a lot of options other than to comply with the building inspectors wishes. It may mean adding just an RCBo, it may mean other work needs to be done to comply.