Biasi 24s HW probs

[allenvb]

Dear all,
I wonder if you can help, I have a biasi 24S that has a problem with HW, the CH is fine but when I turn on the HW, the boiler fires up, gives me about 10 secs of hot water then drops down to luke warm.

Any ideas (please, no 'Yeah get a new boiler mate')

Thanks in advance

V

 

[Agile]

You have a blocked secondary heat exchanger.

That can be confirmed of the temp dial goes about about 65° C.

Tony Glazier

 

[Slugbabydotcom]

Flow switch diaphragm

What happened to your biasi riva compact 32s

 

[Agile]

Its not the diverter because he says it fires up on DHW demand.

Well spotted Slug! He previously posted about "his" Biasi M90-32.

On another posting he said:-

"""I would like to get onto an ACS course, but I can't as I don't work in the Gas industry (although I am a C+G qualified plumber) does anyone know how I can get on a course. I contacted CORGI to put this point across, and the reply I got was 'We understand your problem, but get back in touch with us when you have attained you ACS and you can register' """

I think its reasonable to conclude that these are not really his own boilers and he is repairing them for others ( while not even having the ACS ! ).

Tony

 

[allenvb]

I am not repairing them for anyone, someone has asked me what i think the problem is and I asked the forum, I would not have a clue what the above parts are and how to repair them, if it was a case of changing settings I could have told them what to do but now I can tell them that they need an engineer.

Can you blame me for saying I have a boiler when you take it upon yourselves to look down your nose at people, jump to conclusions, you are ovbviosly wasted as plumbers and engineers you should become detectives

 

[Softus]

Its not the diverter because he says it fires up on DHW demand.

Why does that mean it's not the divertor?

I think its reasonable to conclude that these are not really his own boilers and he is repairing them for others ( while not even having the ACS !).

Even if he were repairing this boiler, why would he need any ACS (unless he were working on the gas side, or flue, or APS, obviously)?

Can you blame me for saying I have a boiler

I think you would have had a better response if you'd been straight about it. Agile isn't the only boiler expert on the forum.

 

[Gasguru]

Even if he were repairing this boiler, why would he need any ACS (unless he were working on the gas side, or flue, or APS, obviously)?

From GSIUR:

"gas fittings" means gas pipework, valves, regulators and meters, and fittings, apparatus and APPLIANCES designed for use by consumers of gas for HEATING etc

and

"work" in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say—
(a) installing the fitting;
(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, REPAIRING, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;
(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and
(d) removing the fitting.


and from section 3:

3.—(1) No person shall carry out any WORK in relation to a GAS FITTING or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any WORK in relation to a GAS FITTTING or gas storage vessel and no self-employed person shall carry out any such WORK, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.


And section 9

(9) Where a person performs WORK on a gas APPLIANCE, he shall immediately thereafter examine—
(a) the effectiveness of any flue,
(b) the supply of combustion air,
(c) its operating pressure and heat input,
(d) its operation so as to ensure its safe functioning


so where exactly does it say you can be employed repairing a boiler without being registered?

 

[Softus]

From GSIUR:

"gas fittings" means gas pipework, valves, regulators and meters, and fittings, apparatus and APPLIANCES designed for use by consumers of gas for HEATING etc

This is the problem with quoting parts of the legislation out of context - you can warp the interpretation into strange shapes.

Bear in mind the preceding paragraph, viz:

"gas appliance" means an appliance designed for use by a consumer of gas for heating, lighting, cooking or other purposes for which gas can be used but it does not include a portable or mobile appliance suppled with gas from a cylinder, or the cylinder, pipes and other fittings used for supplying gas to that appliance, save that, for the purposes of regulations 3, 35 and 36 of these Regulations, it does include a portable or mobile space heater supplied with gas from a cylinder, and the cylinder, pipes and other fittings used for supplying gas to that heater;

Your argument seems to be that the word "appliances", which appears in the definition of "gas fittings", includes, for example, the entire gas boiler.

It doesn't make sense to interpret "appliance" as being a "gas appliance", because the latter was fully defined in one paragraph earlier than the usage of the latter. Whilst I don't claim to be certain about the meaning of the lone word "appliance", in the context in which it's used, one possibility is the inadvertent omission of the word "in" immediately before the word "apparatus".

so where exactly does it say you can be employed repairing a boiler without being registered?

It doesn't. Nor does it say that you can be employed repairing a boiler while standing on leg, eating jelly and having carnal thoughts about the Prince of Wales, but it's perfectly legal to do so.

_________
Edit: I should add that CORGI have agreed with my interpretation, being that a competent heating engineer who is not an RGI can open a boiler casing and work on the water side or electrics as long as no gas fitting or flue is disturbed or in any way compromised.

 

[Agile]

I have no objection to giving advice to anyone about repairing boilers when the repair does not involve gas work.

However I first expect people to be totally truthful and not the say "I have a Biasi 24@ when they do not.

Tony

 

[voiceofthemysteron]

and from section 3:

3.—(1) No person shall carry out any WORK in relation to a GAS FITTING or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
so where exactly does it say you can be employed repairing a boiler without being registered?

You left a lot of section 3 out

2 Legal Requirements & Safety

a) Is it legal to do DIY work on gas?

In short, yes it is, but only if you are competent to do so.

So how is competence judged? You are to be your own judge of whether you are competent or not, but should some catastrophe result from your work, then it would seem clear that you were not competent and should not have tackled the work. That could leave you vulnerable to legal action (assuming you were still alive).

Regulation 3 (1) effectively says that anyone who works on gas must be competent. Regulation 3 (3) effectively says that anyone who is rewarded for gas work (in money or otherwise) must be registered with CORGI. The guidance notes published along with the laws state that level of competence must match the work being done.

If you do gas work for a living then you must be registered if not then you must be competent.

 

[Gasguru]

Softus explain how you can just change a water carrying part on a boiler for instance and then carry out the checks required in section 9 without being registered.

How are you going to check the gas rate if the burner modulates down before the time period required?

How can you check that overheat stat isn't bridged out unless you open up the combustion chamber.

How are you going to know the heat exchanger isn't blocked?

etc

etc

Or perhaps you ignore section 9. The flueless fire incident would have been prevented if section 9 had been carried out.

AFAIK you are not registered - does your liability insurance policy cover you for this work, perhaps you don't bother with insurance.

 

[Softus]

Softus explain how you can just change a water carrying part on a boiler for instance and then carry out the checks required in section 9 without being registered.

This is a non-question, because I don't agree with your premise. In other words, I don't agree that section 9 requires the checks that you think it requires in the circumstances that you think that it requires them.

How are you going to check the gas rate if the burner modulates down before the time period required?

That's either a trick question or a very stupid one - I'm not going to check the gas rate. Why would I?

How can you check that overheat stat isn't bridged out unless you open up the combustion chamber.

Ditto.

How are you going to know the heat exchanger isn't blocked?

Do you mean internally? If so, then the same way that anyone else would know.

etc

etc

Are you often this vague?

Or perhaps you ignore section 9. The flueless fire incident would have been prevented if section 9 had been carried out.

Not my problem - I don't install gas appliances, nor do I make changes that affect the gas train or the combustion process.

AFAIK you are not registered

Depends what you mean by registered, but I've lost count of the number of times I've posted the fact that I'm not an RGI.

does your liability insurance policy cover you for this work

If you mean to ask whether my insurance covers me for the work that I do, then the answer is that it entirely does.

perhaps you don't bother with insurance.

Who the f*** do you think you're talking to, you ignorant fool.

 

[sime10]

I am not repairing them for anyone, someone has asked me what i think the problem is and I asked the forum, I would not have a clue what the above parts are and how to repair them, if it was a case of changing settings I could have told them what to do but now I can tell them that they need an engineer.

Can you blame me for saying I have a boiler when you take it upon yourselves to look down your nose at people, jump to conclusions, you are ovbviosly wasted as plumbers and engineers you should become detectives

I just think that some people here advise on Items that could end up being lethal in the wrong persons hands.
Ok people do try a lot of DIY, but where are most accidents caused?
Yes in the home doing DIY we all see monthly in the Gas installer what people are doing out there by trying out Gas DIY. It is shocking to people that are Corgi registered to see how lives are endangered by people doing DIY and in some cases playing with their lives or another person or persons life. No Corgi wants to see someone else kill themselves so when it does come to gas listen and leave it to someone who knows that little bit more.

 

[Gasguru]

OK Softus lets suppose a customer with a flueless gas fire calls you, there's a problem with the ignition not working.

You replace the piezo ignitor. Invoice customer, job done.

It just so happens this fire is overgassed (manufacturing fault), catalytic converter is blocked and it kills the occupants the following week, your invoice is still sitting on the table. According to your understanding of the law you have done nothing wrong. You weren't touching a gas carrying part so no need to bother with section 9 then (that would have prevented the tradegy). You can stand up in court hold your head high and you know its not your fault. Do you really think you'd get away with it?

Softus, you are obviously in that category of society born without a conscience - sales reps, estate agents, con artists......

Do you tell your customers your not registered? Perhaps your like a few companies local to me - had there own fake corgi cards made up.

Bring on more abuse - seems to be the only way you defend your illegal work.

 

[sime10]

Sensible question? How can your work insurance cover you for gas work when you are not Corgi registered

I just read it again its the work that you do that confuses me
Can you Tell us what you do exactly?