Can you fit recessed lights from the ceiling (below)?

[DIYNotIan]

Hi all

We are thinking of putting in some recessed lights in our kitchen. The wiring is already there because the previous owner had some kitchen cupboards on the wall (we have now removed them) and there were lights beneath the cupboard.

Untitled

• DIYNotIan
• 12 Apr 2012
• 1

Untitled

• DIYNotIan
• 12 Apr 2012
• 1

But the thing is, we would rather not disturb the carpets etc upstairs as they were laid not too long ago.

So would it be possible to fit the recessed spot lights (or for that matter ANY lighting, as we are not dead set on the recessed option) from the kitchen itself? We are doing work in the kitchen, so mess etc would not be a problem.

Any advice would be most helpful

Cheers

Max

 

[sparkybird]

It is possible but a bit of a PITA as you will need to locate the joists and there will be damage to the ceiling. Don't forget it's notifiable work as it's in the kitchen

 

[DIYNotIan]

Don't forget it's notifiable work as it's in the kitchen

Crikey, didn't even think about that, especially because the wiring is already there and so we are just trying tom make use of it. Who would I have to notify and what is involved in the notification? In fact, any info on what does and does not have to be notified would be handy (a link maybe?).

As for the PITA aspect, I'm just trying to remember which way the joists run and any other piratical concerns. I'll then report back.

Thanks for the help

Max

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

You will cause some damage to ceiling to route cables through joist, so sections of the ceiling will need to be removed.
Also you may find your cable lengths need to be extended, depending where your first fitting is going to be. Be aware that you can not have inaccessible joints in cables, unless certain criteria of the regulations are met. This means you will not be able to use standard junction boxes, connection strips and choc boxes. But can use.
MF junctions.
Also the holing of joist must be in compliance to building regulations part A

it's notifiable work as it's in the kitchen

 

[SimonH2]

Who would I have to notify and what is involved in the notification?

Your Local Authority Building Control Dept (LABC).
You get a form, fill it in, and sent it to them with some money before you start. When you've finished (or for some work such as building with new foundations, at stages during the work) you let them know, they come round and inspect it, then issue you with a completion certificate (which you keep so as to keep any future purchasers happy).
However, for minor electrical work, it's almost always cheaper to find a local tradesman - LABC fees for electrical work are <cough> a tad steep. Mine charges £150 or £225 - the cheaper price is if you can supply the right test results, the higher figure covers them paying a local spark to test it. I've heard of some LABC that charge £400

Alternatively, you can employ a tradesman who is a member of a registration scheme. Such people can self-certify/notify their work (so you don't need to bother with LABC) - and since the schemes charge a small amount (I've heard figures between £2.50 and £12) the difference in cost can be more than the cost of employing a tradesman. But they MUST be a member of a suitable registration scheme (eg NAPIT, NICEIC, etc).

In fact, any info on what does and does not have to be notified would be handy (a link maybe?).

Your bible is Schedule 4 of the Building Regulations 2010. Basically, building work is notifiable unless S4 says it isn't. Start at the top and read down, if you find a clause that says you don't need to notify then stop - you don't need to notify. If you reach the bottom of the list without finding anything then you either need to notify or employ someone who can self-certify their work.
Note what S4 doesn't say - you can replace any item of equipment, it does not say it has to be like for like.

Of course, regardless of whether work is notifiable or not, there is always the issue of a person being competent to do the work safely.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

LABC fees for electrical work are <cough> a tad steep. Mine charges £150 or £225 - the cheaper price is if you can supply the right test results, the higher figure covers them paying a local spark to test it. I've heard of some LABC that charge £400

Alternatively, you can employ a tradesman who is a member of a registration scheme. Such people can self-certify/notify their work (so you don't need to bother with LABC) - and since the schemes charge a small amount (I've heard figures between £2.50 and £12) the difference in cost can be more than the cost of employing a tradesman. But they MUST be a member of a suitable registration scheme (eg NAPIT, NICEIC, etc).

My LABC charge £240 and I pay £1.80 notification fee, but membership fee was £444.00, I did get a photocopied version of the part p document thrown in with that though!

 

[DIYNotIan]

Thanks for all this info. I know it is going a bit OT, but it is all relevant...

I've had a look at "the bible" and think I'm going to have to read it a couple more times before making any decisions.

BUT...... (and I know this question is a bit predictable, please forgive me).....

Even if it does need permission, what would happen if I or a friend just did the work without the permission? I would never risk anything dangerous, but the way I see it the cables are already there. All I'd be doing is taking them to a different area. I wouldn't be extending them or adapting them, etc.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In fact, any info on what does and does not have to be notified would be handy (a link maybe?).

Wiki: Please see if the answer to your query is already covered by the Wiki

 

[DIYNotIan]

Thanks mate (and sorry for missing it). Now having a read....

 

[SimonH2]

Even if it does need permission, what would happen if I or a friend just did the work without the permission? I would never risk anything dangerous, but the way I see it the cables are already there. All I'd be doing is taking them to a different area. I wouldn't be extending them or adapting them, etc.

Well this is a grey area.

Firstly, if you just do notifiable work and don't notify then ... unless someone grasses on you, who would know ? After (IIRC) 4 years, LABC can't do anything. But when you come to sell the house, your solicitor will almost certainly hand you a form with a load of questions. These will include questions like "Has any electrical work been done since 2005 ?", has any <something> been done since <some date> ?" These are all to find out if notifiable work has been done since the relevant regs came in.
If you lie on this form then that could be considered fraud since the purchaser may well be relying on this information to (in part) inform their purchasing decision - I think you can imagine that's not taken lightly if you lie about something material when making a transaction that could run into hundreds of thousands of pounds. If you tell the truth then you'll be expected to show completion certificates - or state that the work was not notifiable.

But back to your particular job. Well even in a kitchen you are explicitly allowed to replace fittings. So is your work "replacing a fitting" or is there more to it. A bit grey, and I think you could decide either way. If you decide it is a simple replacement, then it's not notifiable - but you could potentially be asked to justify that decision (not very likely though, to start with someone would need to know that the previous fittings weren't in the same place).

 

[scottyboyiow]

If your using cables that are already there, just get on with the job. If, and thats a big if, you are asked if any electrical work was done when/if you decide to sell the house, the answer with regards to this job is no. If using the same cable, how will anybody ever prove otherwise. If you know where joists are and know where you want your fittings, plan the job well. Cut out the plasterboard ceiling where you will need to feed cable through joists, but cut on the joist line so you can simply replace the board and skim the new joints. As said, stick to the regs with regards to inaccessible junction boxes, and possibly have an onsite guide to read if you want to be anal, but all your really doing it re-routing cable and replacing fittings. If you need to add a bit of cable, then your only replacing a damaged bit (which isnt notifiable).

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

To my mind you are intending to re-route circuit and add lighting points (not replace) unless you only intend to add one downlight per cable leg?
So it would be notifiable.
At a push you could claim cable was replaced due to damage by impact, rodent or fire.
If I did that I would verify it by actually replacing it, especially if old core colours (red & black). But I suppose you could still argue the old core colours are still available.
But at the end of the day there are some untruths being told and if not unsafe, morally wrong and illegal. But hey who am I to judge!

 

[SimonH2]

But at the end of the day there are some untruths being told and if not unsafe, morally wrong and illegal. But hey who am I to judge!

As I said, I think this is probably a bit grey.

S4 says you can replace a light fitting even in a kitchen. It doesn't say it has to be in the same place. So there is an argument that if new light fittings are attached to the existing cables then they are replacement fittings - all he's done it lift them up a bit

It's a judgement call - I think you could judge it either way in this case.

If the house is kept for a while and other notifiable work is done, then at sale time he can hand over a file of completion certificates and it's unlikely anyone would go to the trouble of matching certificates against work which may or may not have been done, and may or may not have been done prior to 2005 (ie not notifiable). That's where all this Part P stuff all breaks down.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

If we look at S4 section 1, a(i)
Could we consider that the cable although not new, is newly fixed?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There are three ways of looking at this.

1) Lights are being replaced, not added, so as long as no new cabling is needed it is not notifiable.

2) It's easy to damage cables when cutting the ceiling away.

3) IIRC the results of the recent consultation over the Building Regulations, kitchens will be losing their special status in a few months time, so in the future there will always be the opportunity to lie about having done the work later, not earlier, and no date coding on cables or accessories or even receipts for materials can disprove that.


What's really important is to do the work safely.