Can you install a new consumer unit without upgrading all?

[diynoobie]

Hi, I have an old wylex fuse board and want to upgrade it to RCD for some extra protection now that children are staying with me. Unfortunately there will still be a couple of areas where my electrics will remain sub-regulations - gas and water bonding; and a socket in the kitchen being on wooden skirting.

Due to concrete floor and tiles, it will be difficult to get this done until next year when i am planning on a bigger overhaul of work.

so - would sparkys undertake this work or are they not allowed to without doing 'everything'?

cheers

 

[ericmark]

The main problem is when after upgrade the RCD will not hold in. The normal method is to test first to find out if there is likely to be a problem before one starts. No one wants to be told half way through sorry you need XYZ doing as well you want to know that before you start.

What sparks will do is up to them some will some will not but you need the spark on site it's no good on a forum. He does need to test maybe not a full EICR but still needs to test.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

As ericmark has already mentioned. The existing system ideally needs to be inspected and tested prior to the installation of a, RCD protected Consumer unit.

It is possible that your existing installation will not be suitable for RCD protected circuits, without some updating/remedial work. If the I&Ts are not carried out prior to swap, then you have a possibility of both power-loss (part or whole) and unforeseen expenses.
It is often found, that neutrals are borrowed/shared and that will not bode well with split RCD protection.
If you believe you do not have suitable bonding to incoming services, such as gas and water, that requires investing immediately.

Electrics not being up to current standards, does not automatically make the installation unsafe or reduce the option of RCD protection. There will be very few board swaps, that do comply to the current regulations of the wiring regs. But again does not make it unsafe.

 

[diynoobie]

I completely understand that if there is a power loss/leak etc that prevents the RCD from operating without tripping then that would have to be fixed. But, I already had an inspection and test done a year ago and the only faults they discovered were the bonding and socket on skirting.

However the spark would not put in a the new consumer unit unless i got all the work done - he would only quote by the hour for the extra remedial work, which i understand, but I can also see it would mean going through concrete floors etc as he insisted it must be next to the gas meter and not the pipes under the floorboards.

The spark said he is not allowed to put in a new CU unless everything it is connected to meets the regs - i.e. the whole house. Thats what has led me to this catch 22!

Separately, I was under the impression that the protection the bonding gives is minimal compared to the protection a new RCD CU gives?

 

[DaveHerns]

Is a socket on a skirting board OK if it's in a plastic casing apart from being more liable to damage or is that the objection?

 

[JohnD]

main bonds to gas and water are very easy. Why don't you want to do them?

 

[ericmark]

I have seen sockets on skirting mounted upside down so the wire in the plug is not strained. There is an issue with IP rating with upside down plug but you need to assess the risk of cable damaged in plug due to socket too low or items being dropped into cable outlet of the plug. In the main just lifting the socket 1 inch is enough to stop cable damage when plugged in.

 

[diynoobie]

I get that the water and gas bonding would normally be easy, but there are metres of concrete between the electricity meter and gas meter and I thought sparks would insist on the cable going all the way to the gas meter (the spark I had refused to just bond to the pipes under the nearest floorboards which would have been much less work).

The socket on the skirting is behind bolt in cabinets which would have to be dismantled for access.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I already had an inspection and test done a year ago and the only faults they discovered were the bonding and socket on skirting.

The socket in skirting would not prevent a new consumer unit being stalled, I would be more concerned if your water/gas supplies were not bonded sufficiently.

However the spark would not put in a the new consumer unit unless i got all the work done - he would only quote by the hour for the extra remedial work, which i understand, but I can also see it would mean going through concrete floors etc as he insisted it must be next to the gas meter and not the pipes under the floorboards.

The bonding could be routed through outside wall and externally fixed.
The regs state this

544.1.2 - The main equipotential bonding connection to any gas, water or other service shall be made as near as practicable to the point of entry of that service into the premises, Where there is an insulating section or insert at that point, or there is a meter, the connection shall be made to the consumer's hard metal pipework and before any branch pipework. Where practicable the connection shall be made within 600mm of the meter outlet or at the union point of entry to the building if the meter is external"

The spark said he is not allowed to put in a new CU unless everything it is connected to meets the regs - i.e. the whole house. Thats what has led me to this catch 22!

Not true

Separately, I was under the impression that the protection the bonding gives is minimal compared to the protection a new RCD CU gives?

Where did you get this impression from?

 

[RF Lighting]

There will be a way to do the bonding.

I would not replace the cu if there is no bonding and the customer would not have it installed.

 

[diynoobie]

I guess if bonding is not required then I must have gotten a spark that exercised their own preference not to insert the CU without bonding. Fair enough, but they could have been clearer.

On RCD >bonding, i cannot say where i got that impression - is it not true?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

the only faults they discovered were the bonding and socket on skirting.

What exactly is "wrong" with the bonding?

The socket on the skirting board is easy to fix if someone is going to be that picky.

it would mean going through concrete floors etc as he insisted it must be next to the gas meter and not the pipes under the floorboards.

Photos of what bonding you have, and where, would be useful.

If you want to use the site's own photo library provision you'll find the instructions here: //www.diynot.com/network/DIYnot/albums/67/180

To get photo(s) to appear in your post you need to do all 11 steps.

Or in a fraction of the time it takes to go through that convoluted process you could use an image hosting site such as http://www.postimage.org

The spark said he is not allowed to put in a new CU unless everything it is connected to meets the regs - i.e. the whole house.

He is obviously not thinking clearly.

If that were true then no electrician could ever replace a CU without half-gutting the house first, or ignoring every single existing cable and doing a complete rewire.

To be sure that everything connected to it complies with the regulations he would have to dig out the plaster over every cable in the walls, and lift floor and/or remove ceilings so that he could check every bit of every cable to ensure that:

They all run in the right places.

They are the right size from end-to-end (no undersized sections).

There are no concealed screwed joints.

There is no unrepaired damage.

There is no missing sheathing.

He is aware of all the thermal insulation and grouping etc factors which affect their current carrying capacity.


Nobody does that. He was not suggesting that he had to do that. He just wasn't thinking.

But of course challenging him on this isn't going to work - at best you'll get a resentful electrician doing things under protest, and that won't end well. You need to kick him into touch and get one who understands that when he signs an installation certificate for the replacement of a CU it is the work of replacing the CU which he is certifying was compliant with the regulations, not the entire installation.

But that will include fixing the problems with the bonding (whatever they are - hence the request for photos).

Very early on in the Regulations, in the Fundamental Principles, it says this:

No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be
made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained
that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment,
including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered
circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding
arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied
for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

Separately, I was under the impression that the protection the bonding gives is minimal compared to the protection a new RCD CU gives?

If your bonding is inadequate that has to be resolved.

 

[RF Lighting]

Bonding is required. You MUST have it installed before your cu can be replaced.

It is on a par with RCD for importance.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I guess if bonding is not required

It is - there is no discretion there.

But you don't have to dig up a concrete floor to install it.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I guess if bonding is not required then I must have gotten a spark that exercised their own preference not to insert the CU without bonding. Fair enough, but they could have been clearer.

Generally bonding the service pipes is required. Only in certain circumstance it can be emitted, such as insulated incoming supply pipes.
The question is does yours need updating?

On RCD >bonding, i cannot say where i got that impression - is it not true?

Bonding if required is one of the most important elements to an electrical installation, it could be argued that RCD protection is also an important method of protection. But other than the exception above you will require bonding to incoming services. Where as RCD protection are not always a necessity! In my eyes they are both very beneficial when it comes to electrical safety. But I would hold more importance on having correct bonding.