Confused with lot20 storage heaters

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How much electricity with this use?
The description says output 1500w. However, the input says 3400w
Do they use less electricity than my current 3.4kw not lot20 storage heaters? If so how much more economical are they?
Thanks
 
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It has a maximum storage capacity of 23100Wh
It takes 7 hours (off-peak) to charge that capacity, with an input of 3300W.
It takes a further 17 hours to release that heat capacity, with an output of approx. 1500W.

It will use approximately the same amount of electricity as your current storage heater.
 
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However, the input says 3400w
Do they use less electricity than my current 3.4kw not lot20 storage heaters?
No, for the same heat output it's exactly the same.

If so how much more economical are they?
Marginally.
The benefits are electronic thermostat with proper room temperature sensing, they also have a smaller second heating element which can be used any time to provide extra heat if required, plus a fan which forces air through the heater to provide a more 'instant' heating effect.

However heating any particular room requires a certain amount of energy - and there is no way to change that other than improving the insulation of the room/building.

If you were looking to save money, these heaters are not the way to do it. They will cost £1000s to have installed, will require extra daytime circuits to be added at each heater position, and will never save anywhere near what it costs to install them.

If you heat your rooms for most of the day on most days, then savings would be next to nothing and you might as well keep the existing old heaters. If the old ones are not working properly or at all, most old storage heaters can be repaired for a fraction of the cost of new ones.

If you only need to heat the rooms for a few hours here and there (such as being out at work all day or similar), then heaters which can be switched on as required will probably be cheaper to run overall, as although the electricity will be more expensive per unit, the amount of energy used will be dramatically less.
 
If a heater can retain the heat for a long time, then it can be set only to release heat when required, so a well insulated water tank can store the heat for a week, in the 70's some council flats were built with central heating, and I mean central, in the centre of the house was a storage unit that again would stay hot for a week, and the heat was removed with fans.

However insulation takes up space, so with non central heating where each storage radiator stores the heat independent, the only method to store enough in such a small space is to store at a high temperature, which means the minimum output is also high, at 900ºC losses are much higher than at 90ºC with a water system, but it takes up less space.

I was involved with trying to make a concrete bound brick rather than clay bound, it did not work out as expected as it was found the magnetite or iron ore, when heated to around 250ºC changes state, and releases load of oxygen which combines to hydrogen in the air to produce loads of water when first heated, once heated once it was OK, but that mean the bricks needed to go into an oven to heat them then allowed to cool before being fitted into the heaters, so may as well be bound with clay.

I had a heater in my office to test the bricks, and it did not go well, by 6 PM it was giving a very low output, which was not a problem for me, as about to go home, but in most homes that would be a huge problem, just as you want the heat, it has run out.

But my brother-in-law had the water system, main idea was solar panels, wood burner, and LPG gas could all produce the heat, giving him a multi-fuel central heating system, he could visit his daughter in Germany, and use the app on his phone on return to turn up the house heat, and his house was lovely and warm when he returned without using any mains electric just the stored energy in the tanks, on moving it was so good he looked at retro-fitting the system on his new house, however although OK with a new build installed when house was built, as a retro-fit the costs were far too high, looking at around £24k, which at 70 he would never get back.

So he just has standard I think oil, don't think he used LPG, like me his DNO fuse is 60 amp, so whole idea of electric only heating is a non starter, we have both looked at heat pumps, but they can't heat the circulating water to as hot as when we use oil or gas, so since water is cooler, the radiators need to be bigger, or fan assisted, using fan assisted the response time is fast. But again installation costs go up.

As to batteries, they would need to be huge, the unit is 23 kWh where normally we see batteries able to store 3 to 5 kWh, a ton of water can hold around 80 kWh so can be done with water tanks, but you need some where to store a ton of water, an ISO container used by many farmers is a ton of water. To use in the house we want the possibility of thermo syphon, so some where up stairs we need a reinforced floor which can take a ton weight.

The E7 tariff seems to be on its way out, so really today looking at heat pumps, I know my flat in Hong Kong had a heat pump, but that was used mainly for cooling although it could heat as well, but not cheap.
 
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My interpretation of his comment is that the difference between on and off-peak has narrowed over the decades and is probably going to disappear entirely due to shifting patterns of consumption, and "time-shifting" of loads [eg charging batteries off peak, using later].
There might not be an explicit end to E7, it's just that the benefit of it will just fade away.
 
Me and about 100 neighbours all use E7, so this is a worry.
E7 in the traditional sense will be going away, as the transmitter which provides the signal is very expensive to operate, and the radio receivers at each property which switch on the heating loads are obsolete.
A similar system will exist with smart meters, however that will be more aligned with what generation and load levels are like, with prices adjusted accordingly at whatever times are appropriate.

The old ways of banging on all the storage heaters in the country for 7 hours at night because heavy industry has closed for the day and there are 30 coal burning power stations generating electricity no one can use are long gone.

For those that already have storage heaters and E7, equivalent tariffs are available with smart meters.

For anyone else considering installing new storage heaters - forget it. Their era is over.
 
E7 in the traditional sense will be going away, as the transmitter which provides the signal is very expensive to operate, and the radio receivers at each property which switch on the heating loads are obsolete.
I think that, these days, most of us with E7 (or similar) have local switching, using either explicit time switches or electronic meters, rather than teleswitches.
A similar system will exist with smart meters, ...
Fixed-TOU tariffs like E7 do not require a 'smart' meter. My allegedly 'dumb' (but electronic) meter has no problem with E7 metering. In fact, given that it has umpteen potential TOU registers (and no contactor), the only sense in which my meter is not 'smart' is that it lacks any communication capabilities. However, as you go on to say ...
.... however that will be more aligned with what generation and load levels are like, with prices adjusted accordingly at whatever times are appropriate.
As you say, 'smart' meters facilitate (dynamically) flexible TOU tariffs.
The old ways of banging on all the storage heaters in the country for 7 hours at night because heavy industry has closed for the day and there are 30 coal burning power stations generating electricity no one can use are long gone.
... but now, increasingly, EV chargers, rather than storage heaters, which are being 'banged on' during the night.
For those that already have storage heaters and E7, equivalent tariffs are available with smart meters.
As above, also (like me) without a 'smart'; meter.

Kind Regards, John
 
Is this true? Me and about 100 neighbours all use E7, so this is a worry. Do you have a source for that ericmark?
Not really 'true'. Tariffs like E7 will probably remain around for a very long time (whatever they may come to call them), although such tariffs which have unchangeable 'cheap hours' will gradually be replaced by much more flexible ('smart'-meter-based) ones, electricity cost at any particular time of day being determined by patterns of demand.

What is true is that tariffs like E7 are becoming progressively less attractive/cost-effective. Compared with 35+ years ago, when I first started using E7, the difference between the cost of daytime and 'cheap rate' electricity has reduced dramatically.

Kind Regards, John
 
Thanks all and sorry for the hijack
E7 suits us fine as our usage is low - you get to a point where servicing and maintenance of a gas-based system becomes significant in the total annual cost, so not sure we would save anything. Also, no gas in the building, and no sign of anyone giving permission for heat pumps, so we are stuck with storage heaters really

Brian
 
E7 suits us fine as our usage is low - ...
You need to do the sums. E7 is likely to cot you more (in comparison with a standard single-rate tariff) unless your off-peak usage is at least about 35% (more with some suppliers) of your total usage - because the price paid for having a lower price/unit for 7 hours during the night is that you pay more (than with a single-rate tariff) for usage during the other 17 hours of the day.

Kind Regards, John
 
Our energy use in summer is double for the nighttime 7 hours compared to the daytime 17 hours, and about 5 times in winter

Brian
 
Our energy use in summer is double for the nighttime 7 hours compared to the daytime 17 hours, and about 5 times in winter
That's fine then. However, as I said, the benefit of E7 has been progressively declining markedly over the years, and probably will continue to do that, so I suggest that you keep an eye on the figures in the future!

Kind Regards, John
 
I think E7 is still available in Scotland, but for rest of uk, unless you already have it, you can't get it. The two rates off and on peak have changed, and it depends on supplier if still worth while.

Also usage, for a household with a small baby who want 24/7 heating the are very different to a household where only between 6 pm and 10 pm do they really want the home heated.

I would think I will use more at night than through the day, as solar panels will provide most the day time demand, but as to how long my batteries will supply my needs, I have no idea, solar panels due to be fitted next week. It seems some suppliers will still pay for exported power, but it depends with supplier you use.

I can't see any storage heater being worth while, but there are so many variables there is no answer to the question. It seems unlikely they will be economically viable.
 
Not really 'true'. Tariffs like E7 will probably remain around for a very long time (whatever they may come to call them), although such tariffs which have unchangeable 'cheap hours' will gradually be replaced by much more flexible ('smart'-meter-based) ones, electricity cost at any particular time of day being determined by patterns of demand.
I have noticed suppliers offering "EV" tarrifs where the night time rate seems very cheap, but the cheap period seems substantially shorter than transitional economy 7

I wonder whether the rise of solar generation lead to an inversion in the pricing structure. That is will the cheapest time periods be in the daytime

Whatever happens, I expect the early evening to remain the most challenging period for the power grid and thus the most expensive period for wholesale electricity.
 

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