Cooker Wiring

[ericmark]

Why? Throw it away and read the actual law.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/schedule/4/made

(i)any new fixed cabling
(a)is not in a kitchen, or a special location
That seems to say he must notify. However.
“kitchen” means a room or part of a room which contains a sink and food preparation facilities;
So while the sink and food preparation facilities have been ripped out, it is not a kitchen, however there are rules on change of use, so no real way around the law.

But still seems daft to have to notify before putting some cleats on the cable to keep it out of harms way.

 

[JohnW2]

But no one has been taken to court purely for not notifying work required by Part P. I would be interested in any cases you know of where there was nothing wrong with workmanship and they did not claim to be scheme members where they were taken to court.

We've discussed this many times and, as you are aware, no-one here has heard of a case of anyone 'being taken to court' because of non-notification of electrical work, per se.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Why? Throw it away and read the actual law.

I think eric's point is that 'the actual law' (and, indeed, Approved Doc P) do not seem to make it clear as to whether clipping the cable of a plugged-in extension lead (to, say, a wall or skirting board) does, or does not, render that cable part of the 'fixed wiring' - which I suppose is a way of saying that 'fixed wiring' is not defined.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Gordon1959]

This thread is of interest to me, not that I'm putting in two electric ovens but more that I want to replace the cooker/13A socket wall unit with a set up like this.
The total current drain won't be anywher near the 32A of the RCD and no-one else lives in the house so there won't be an issue with anyone putting the microwave, washer, drier and toaster on at the same time . I have been using a washing machine and a drier at the same time on a double plug with no issues as each appliance has its own 13A fused plug. I initially had them on a 13A extension lead but the plug top was getting warmish so that was enough for me to think it wasn't a good idea.
Anyhow, here's a picture attached.

 

[winston1]

This thread is of interest to me, not that I'm putting in two electric ovens but more that I want to replace the cooker/13A socket wall unit with a set up like this.
The total current drain won't be anywher near the 32A of the RCD and no-one else lives in the house so there won't be an issue with anyone putting the microwave, washer, drier and toaster on at the same time . I have been using a washing machine and a drier at the same time on a double plug with no issues as each appliance has its own 13A fused plug. I initially had them on a 13A extension lead but the plug top was getting warmish so that was enough for me to think it wasn't a good idea.
Anyhow, here's a picture attached.View attachment 159835

Washing machine and tumble dryer should NOT be in the same double socket as a double socket is rated at a total of 20 amps not 26 amps.
The pond pump does NOT need a RCD plug as you are already fitting a RCD at the origin of the circuit. Out of interest is there another RCD before the one you propose fitting to this circuit? If the answer is yes you don't need to fit this one either. Of course it will be a 30mA device not a 32 amp won't it?

 

[winston1]

I’m not an electrician, obviously, and won’t be doing it myself, but no fuse and no switch to each oven doesn’t seem right.

There is no requirement for a separate isolation switch for any oven as it can be isolated at the CU. Same applies to the fuse.

 

[Gordon1959]

Washing machine and tumble dryer should NOT be in the same double socket as a double socket is rated at a total of 20 amps not 26 amps.
The pond pump does NOT need a RCD plug as you are already fitting a RCD at the origin of the circuit. Out of interest is there another RCD before the one you propose fitting to this circuit? If the answer is yes you don't need to fit this one either. Of course it will be a 30mA device not a 32 amp won't it?

Thanks for the help, I didn't know the double socket was rated lower than 2 x 13A so that's useful to know. As for the RCD, there will be one in the CU for the cooker circuit which is the first available location to put it, I could leave the original fuse in place but I thought I'd go for an RCD instead. I replaced a ring main fuse with an RCD a few years back as the bakelite fusewire holder was slowly cooking itself and emitting a smell of fish. Apart from the information you supplied (for which I am grateful) does the diagram look ok to you ?

 

[winston1]

Thanks for the help, I didn't know the double socket was rated lower than 2 x 13A so that's useful to know. As for the RCD, there will be one in the CU for the cooker circuit which is the first available location to put it, I could leave the original fuse in place but I thought I'd go for an RCD instead. I replaced a ring main fuse with an RCD a few years back as the bakelite fusewire holder was slowly cooking itself and emitting a smell of fish. Apart from the information you supplied (for which I am grateful) does the diagram look ok to you ?

Are you confusing RCDs and MCBs? Because you cannot replace a fuse with a RCD. RCDs don't trip on overload.

Diagram looks OK to me.

 

[Gordon1959]

Are you confusing RCDs and MCBs? Because you cannot replace a fuse with a RCD. RCDs don't trip on overload.

Diagram looks OK to me.

Yes, you are correct. MCB is the one I meant (doh!).

 

[oldbutnotdead]

One caveat is you're creating a radial circuit with the end points being fed by 2.5mm- to adequately protect the cable the MCB would need to be 20A not 32A. Actually probably less, because of your installation method you'd have to derate the cable even further. Why are you using conduit?
Anyway, solution would be 4mm from your JB to your radial sockets, and best off uprating to a 45A junction box (if such a beast exists- cramming 3 x 4mm and 1 x 6mm into a 30A box would be a treat. Not.)
Another one- is the circuit actually protected by an RCD? Your last post implies that it won't be (once the confusion between MCB & RCD was sorted)- any new cabling (except under some fairly extreme circs) and any new socket now requires RCD protection. If you only have 1 slot available in the CU then an RCBO (MCB and RCD in one convenient package) would be the way forward- not sure they're available as an upgrade to a rewireable fuse type CU though

 

[winston1]

One caveat is you're creating a radial circuit with the end points being fed by 2.5mm- to adequately protect the cable the MCB would need to be 20A not 32A.

But individual sockets (single or double) can be spurred off a 32 amp circuit in 2.5mm cable.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

But individual sockets (single or double) can be spurred off a 32 amp circuit in 2.5mm cable.

Yeah, I see your logic there but isn't that one of the little oddities accompanying the whole RFC lashup? If that sketch was in a test I'd define it as a radial not a ring final

 

[winston1]

Suppose you put a short loop ring on the junction box. You'd then have a lollypop circuit with three spurs off it all coming from the same place with no sockets on the ring. All perfectly legit. Now remove the loop as it is doing nothing.

 

[JohnW2]

Yeah, I see your logic there but isn't that one of the little oddities accompanying the whole RFC lashup? If that sketch was in a test I'd define it as a radial not a ring final

Downstream over-current protection is permitted (provided fault protection is OK), so 2.5mm² cable supplying one double socket is OK (regardless of how high the rating of the upstream RCD), provided only that the CCC of the cable, as installed, is no less than 26A (2 x 13A).

Hence, 2.5mm² cable fed from a 45A upstream MCB and feeding one double socket will be OK so long as the 2.5mm² cable is installed Method C (hence CCC=27A), as it would be as an unfused spur from a ring final if it were installed by that method.

Hence, I think that the only real oddity about the regs is that some people might read the reg as allowing a unfused spur to a double socket from a ring to be wired in 2.5mm² cable with a CCC (as installed) of only 20A (rather than 27A). However, I think that there can be debate as to whether that is what the reg 'actually says' (or, at least, 'actually means'!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Suppose you put a short loop ring on the junction box. You'd then have a lollypop circuit with three spurs off it all coming from the same place with no sockets on the ring. All perfectly legit. Now remove the loop as it is doing nothing.

Again I can see your logic. Still don't like it but I'll concede the point about 32A being considered adequate protection for 2.5mm under those circs.....going to bed now so I can't hear the mouse that the cat lost last night scuttering under the floorboards