Dispute with Electrical installers

[Chri5]

Why on God's earth would you allow any contractor to start work without a finalised cost is beyond me.

It will be more expensive to start again with a new contractor, so I would suggest you bite the bullet and get them to return. Since they haven't done the work correctly ask them to soak up the cost for remedial works which should take about an hour, issue the mwc and go forth.

As for costs, a double socket including back box, socket and cable is about £50 including work and materials. So four would be x4 or about £200. If they argue that sort of figure rate then ask them to qualify and post up here

 

[Chas72]

Hi Chri5

I hired them on the basis of the conversation with the guy quoting and that the job was only 300 quid or so based on their hourly rate.

We used our loft conversion company to fit the electrics in the room next door and their price was similar to the price you mentioned.

Their invoice price is £85 per socket and we did the prep for that. Without prep they charge £120 or so per socket.

We've received another email from them and they have offered to take off a small amount of money as a good will gesture to get the job finished. It'll include the remedial works as par of the original price.


Thanks

 

[riveralt]

I'm interested in how the 'contract' was arranged. Because if the contractors failed to follow the distance selling regulation
http://www.out-law.com/page-430
requirements in so much that the regulations give the customer a right to.
1. receive clear information about the supplier, the goods or services and the sale before deciding to buy;
2. confirmation of this information in writing;
3. a cancellation period of 7 working days in which to withdraw from the contract.
Failure to comply with this and other elements of the regulations are a criminal offence.
If NICIEC won't help and I must say that if the contractor has breached these regulations then I believe this is an NICEIC issue, you should go to the citizens advice bureau.

 

[Alarm]

I hope others are aware your discussing this in trade talk too, and dont like the answers,

//www.diynot.com/forums/trade-talk/rights-as-a-client-to-sack-contractor.310809/

 

[Chas72]

Interesting and very helpful info there riveralt. Thanks.

I assume the contract between us commenced when I agreed to pay the deposit, £255 (50% of the total quoted cost) over the phone.

This was 10 days before we received the actual quote in an email. They've confirmed this date.

 

[Alarm]

Also your dates differ here than in "trade talk" or rather are not mentioned.
You had your 7 days cooling off from the above.

Just letting others see how your running this in tandem and offering slightly differing stories.

 

[Chas72]

Just letting others see how your running this in tandem and offering slightly differing stories.

I thought your agenda (apart from being a troll) was to laugh at my posts and situation, as you said in the other thread.

The other thread btw is to do with getting financial compensation where as this one is more about if the work is compliant with UK standards. We've already established it is not so it's moved onto financial compensation.

 

[Alarm]

You obviously have difficulty reading then.


Your the one feeling it was funny, but your again covering other ground.
I love the troll bit, as I was perhaps the only one to try and understand your situation but found it a little too one sided as another has agreed.

Then I see you here, so I make sure others can see a fuller story.

In which case i`m a troll for giving ALL the information about your situation where you seem to hold back in each thread.

 

[Chas72]

Asked them for a breakdown of the £60 cost for parts, here's what they've come back with.

15 metres ring main cabling £25
Cable Clips £2
Earth Sleeving £6
Screw connector Junction Box £2
Test Sheets £15

+ VAT

Sound fair?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Sounds like an enormous markup to me. I particularly like the sleeving - you can get 100m for that.

 

[ericmark]

I had a problem with one firm I worked for where the boss instructed that we always charge retail for any parts fitted as the difference between trade and retail paid for our time should the items go faulty in changing them.

As a result it was common for the customer to supply the parts to save money. Which resulted in my careful reading of the bill when any part failed so I knew if or not to charge for the work.

We all know in the electric trade the mark up on cable is really excessive and also the chance of cable failing is very small so often we don't charge retail. It has been said many times it is cheaper to get the electrician to pick up the parts.

However it is hard to comment on cost of parts as in real terms they are within their rights to charge retail and quantity is also a problem. If I was to do a job using Ali-tube cable which I can only buy by the role I would charge for the role even if I only used half of the cable. I would offer what was left to the customer. However with twin and earth I would charge for what was used as I have a good sale for what is left. I would add a little on as of course one is unlikely to be able to use the last couple of meters as too short for most jobs.

I would consider charging for the whole hank of earth sleeve as unreasonable but it would be also hard to say it was wrong however you should be at least offered what was left over.

It is as you can see hard to argue at the cost of parts even when one thinks it's a little high.

I also find charging by the hour is hard. We all know from time to time errors will be made and when charging for the job it's some thing we have to cover for. We may win on one but lose on another. However when charging by the hour there is nothing to say how fast we work and any errors which require time to correct are likely paid for by the client. In the main charging by the hour is only done when assisting another firms electricians to do work and their electricians set the pace of the work and are responsible for the quality of whole job.

Where you want the firm to allow you both to work together to complete the work one has to decide before starting who is in charge of the work. Since the electrical firm in order to sign the completion certificate has to be in charge the only way is for them to tell you what needs doing if the reverse was the case then you would need to sign all the installation certificates and work through the local authority building control if any parts needed a completion certificate to be issued.

As the electrical engineer I had to many times employ outside firms to do work for me. There were regular firms which I trusted and would employ without writing out too much spec but for any first time firms I had to be very careful to get a written contract detailing exactly what they were to do.

From what I have read here you did not take the care required to detail what they were to do and at what cost. I also have made that mistake and I had to accept I had made a mistake which I would try not to repeat. Much was down to trust and most firms realised if they didn't play ball they would not get any more work so as a large firm we did not have too much of a problem.

However you are unlikely what ever the outcome going to use the firm again so you don't have the lever I had. You can of course tell others what went on but most firms will always have one or two who will write or speak of them in a bad light and so are likely not really worried.

Small claims courts as cheap so he can easy take you to court for money owning but to hire a solicitor to fight the case is expensive so it does not really matter who is in the right it comes down to is it really worth fighting.

To present paperwork to a court is great. But he said and I said and he promised is so hard to prove it's just not worth thinking about.

So if he said for example "It was pointed out that a junction box needs access and the client said they were sanding and varnishing the floor boards so there would be assess" could you prove that was not the case?

I am not saying who is right or who is wrong but in real terms I think you have to try to agree on a remedial package and accept you made a mistake selecting that firm. To swap firms will likely cost you more money.

 

[Chas72]

They've asked to see proof that installing the maintenance free JB or crimped wires with a JB is a UK regulation.

Where can I find a link that confirms this?

Thanks

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

what do you mean?

Who wants to see regulations about maintenance free JBs? whoever it is, they could try looking at 526.3(vi)

I've tried reading both of your threads together and they don't really scan very well.

Is my summary of the situation correct:-

-You spoke to a guy on the phone, he told you the job would be about £300 plus a bit for materials.
-They sent an email to confirm this.
-You haven't seen this email.
-They asked you for a deposit of 50%, value of £255.
-You gave them the money they asked for, without regard for the missing email containing the quote.
-They have done some work, which you asked for.
-You have done some work, its not clear what work you did, why you did it if they had quoted to do it. But you didn't know they had agreed to do it as you havent seen the quote
-You are not happy with the quality of their work, you only mention 1 loose backbox. Is there anything else?
-You don't want to give them a chance to rectify the bits you are not happy with.
-You are now being asked for less money than you thought it would cost, but your not happy about that.
-You are asking what to do about it.
-You are getting answers from the good folk of this forum.
-You are not happy with the answers you are getting.

How did I do?

 

[ericmark]

526.3 Every connection shall be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance, except for the following:
(i) A joint designed to be buried in the ground
(ii) A compound-filled or encapsulated joint
(iii) A connection between a cold tail and the heating element as in ceiling heating, floor heating or a trace heating system
(iv) A joint made by welding, soldering, brazing or appropriate compression tool
(v) A joint forming part of the equipment complying with the appropriate product standard.
If you click on image you can read about the product.
This is more detailed but you may need to register It does link to a PDF Guide but again may need a log in to read it. It refers to 134.1.4 Every electrical joint and connection shall be of proper construction as regards conductance, insulation, mechanical strength and protection.

The PDF does explain why the old circular boxes have very limited use. What we have to remember throughout the regulations it refers to manufactures recommendations and so if the manufacturer say you should or should not use their product in a certain way one has no real option but to do as they say.

 

[EFLImpudence]

526.3 (v) has been updated plus a new (vi)

(v) Joints or connections made in equipment by the manufacturer of the product and not intended to be inspected or maintained.

(vi) Equipment complying with BS5733 for a maintenance-free accessory and marked with the symbol MF(encircled) and installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.