DIY'er Renovation Questions

[wodger]

Hi,

Thanks for a great forum. I have spent a number of hours on here already.

I have recently moved into a new house (well new to me... but house is 30 years old) and need \ want to make some changes.

Firstly I want to install a shower pump to power mixer shower in main bathroom and a new mixer shower to replace an electric shower in en-suite. I have ordered a Salamander ESP 100 CPV pump and S-Flange for the cylinder. The shower in the main bathroom is already a power shower but the pump has given in and I cant get a replacement so I already have a dedicated 22mm feed from my loft storage tanks (2 large linked tanks), 160l cylinder and the necessary electrics (will fit 5amp fused socket).

I plan to locate the pump on the floor of the airing cupboard. The main shower is behind the wall of the airing cupboard so should not be a problem to hook up.

My first question is about supplying the en-suite shower. Currently the shower is fed from a 15mm main taken off the feed to the storage tanks and run the length of the house (+- 10m) through the loft and down from the ceiling. I will obviously disconnect this line and feed the shower with 2 x 22mm feeds from the pump. Is there a problem with me running the new hot and cold 22mm pumped lines through the loft too? Or should they run under the floor and come up into the shower? I plan to make all visible pipework in copper and either loft or under floor in plastic barrier pipe. The loft run I think would be the simplest for me to do as I don't have to lift a load of floor boards and its is easier for me to run the pipes down from the loft into the shower cubicle rather than up through the shower tray. I will eventually redo the en-suite room and will bury the pipes in the wall at that time but cant do it now.

My second question is about the water temp. The pump specifies a maximum temp of 65C but my cylinder does not have a thermostat. The water system is a gravity fed C-Plan and my boiler needs the hot water to be on in order to supply the radiators. Is there any risk of the water temp getting too hot? If yes is there anything I can do to control the temp of the supply to the pump?

My last question... Is it worth me spending time and money in changing my system from gravity fed to pumped? What are the benefits? I believe my boiler (danesmoor 20/25) can be configured in Y-Plan.

Sorry this is so long... I realise a plumber would be best for these jobs but I like doing them myself.

Thanks
Warren

 

[Breesey]

You'll be fine running pipes through loft to the shower. Lag 'em.

I never had a problem when I had a pump fitted to a gravity fed cylinder.

Converting to Y (or S) plan will give you the control you currently don't have and remove your concern about overheating

 

[ChrisR]

Is there a problem with me running the new hot and cold 22mm pumped lines through the loft too?

No. Just fit a manual bleed valve, and insulate.

My second question is about the water temp. The pump specifies a maximum temp of 65C but my cylinder does not have a thermostat. The water system is a gravity fed C-Plan and my boiler needs the hot water to be on in order to supply the radiators. Is there any risk of the water temp getting too hot?

Yes, water will cavitate in the pump
and you'll get lots of scale in the cylinder.

If yes is there anything I can do to control the temp of the supply to the pump?

Put a themostat and zone valve on the hw primaries.

My last question... Is it worth me spending time and money in changing my system from gravity fed to pumped? What are the benefits?

Yes, the hw will reheat a lot faster.

I believe my boiler (danesmoor 20/25) can be configured in Y-Plan.

Dunno about them, S plan might be easier as you should already have one zone valve? System would pprobably also need a bypass in that case.

 

[wodger]

Thanks for the quick replies. Good news about running pipes in the loft. Think it will make my life easier.

Put a themostat and zone valve on the hw primaries.

Does this mean a valve on the pipe that goes into the coil in the cylinder? Am I right in guessing that the valve would need to stop the gravity feed from the boiler into the cylinder and force it down a branch to the return feed from the cylinder and thus back to the boiler? If this is correct then I dont think I have the space to do this without redoing a lot of the cylinder pipework (wanted to avoid due to poor condition of the pipes) Picture attached... Would the valve need to fit vertically between these two pipes?

Thanks
Warren

 

[Terrywookfit]

No it would need to be fitted either betweeen the vent and the cylinder or the cold feed and cylinder if on the return pipe!!!

 

[wodger]

No it would need to be fitted either betweeen the vent and the cylinder or the cold feed and cylinder if on the return pipe!!!

Sorry to ask... but I would like to understand how this works. How would putting a valve on the vent pipe or cold feed stop the flow of water through the cyclinder?

 

[Terrywookfit]

I never said to fit on the cold feed or vent if you read my post correctly!!!

 

[wodger]

Sorry Terrywookfit...

I just read that again after a nights sleep and yes it does make sense. So the valve would need to go after the vent but before the cylinder or after the cyclinder but before the cold feed?

Looking at the current pipework its going to be a bit cozy... If I do decide to do that how does the valve get connected to the cyclinder stat? Does it need to go into some kind of control box?

Is there a problem with me running the new hot and cold 22mm pumped lines through the loft too?

No. Just fit a manual bleed valve, and insulate.

Where would this bleed valve need to be located?

Thanks
Warren

 

[Breesey]

Like this C plan http://content.honeywell.com/UK/homes/systems.htm#C Plan

Put finger vents at the highest points on your shower pipe work (though they aren't strictly necassary in my experience).

 

[wodger]

Thanks, I have seen that before... but I cant seem to work out how to wire it into my current control panel.

Attached diagram of current wiring... any idea where \ how I would wire it into this?

 

[D_Hailsham]

The water system is a gravity fed C-Plan and my boiler needs the hot water to be on in order to supply the radiators. Is there any risk of the water temp getting too hot? If yes is there anything I can do to control the temp of the supply to the pump?

My last question... Is it worth me spending time and money in changing my system from gravity fed to pumped? What are the benefits? I believe my boiler (danesmoor 20/25) can be configured in Y-Plan.

You say that it need HW on when the CH is on. Is this through a switch on the boiler or do you have external timer/programmer?

If you have the WB two channel programmer, there is a switch on the back which selects between fully pumped and pumped CH/gravity HW.

You can find the boiler installation instructions (if you don't already have them) on the Installer Section of the Worcester-Bosch website. They give instructions about wiring up for Y-plan and S-plan.

 

[ChrisR]

WHere does that 15mm pipe go, out of the top of the T in the upper cylinder primary pipe?
If it's the open vent it's too small, if it's just a bleed valve you can put a MV in the vertical pipe going to the cylinder top connection.

 

[Breesey]

Attached diagram of current wiring... any idea where \ how I would wire it into this?

Just an idea:

 

[cozzmic]

If you put in a salamander and the HW temp is too high it can cause problems. If you look in the instructions it will tell you to fit a blender valve to keep the inlet temp down to tolerences while not affecting shower performance.

 

[wodger]

Thanks all for the helpful advice as always.

I think I have a plan of action that may work. If I fit the pump now and make use of a blender valve (have found the cleghorn CW272B??) then in the summer time I will update my system to be fully pumped Y or S-plan. (once the funds have built up and I can have the heating off for a while)

If I update my system to Y plan does the pump have to be fitted on the supply side of the 28mm from the boiler or can it be fitted to the return side. I have the most available space to fit the pump in the cupboard downstairs where the boiler is. This would require minimal pipework and minimal wire running. I understand I cant fit it to the flow pipe in this location as it would be between the boiler and the vent, but if it could go on the return pipe it may be simpler. I would then fit the cylinder stat and 3 way valve in the airing cupboard.

Lastly I have two large storage tanks in the loft. I noticed the other day that one has no lid or insulation and the bottom is coated in brown dust with a nice inch long dead millipede in the bottom. The sides near the top of the water are also coated in flaking limescale. I want to get this cleaned out ASAP but should I just get a new tank? I have also noticed that the other tank is just there as expansion. There is no feed to or from the tank other than via the link pipe. I have read on here that the water should enter one tank and exit the other. Is it important that I fix this?

Thanks again